tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post1129976474545445924..comments2023-07-18T16:31:37.984-06:00Comments on Searching for the Light on the Path: Disciples Among the NationsJameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-51602109497331911142010-07-12T19:06:16.130-06:002010-07-12T19:06:16.130-06:00The irony in all this for me is when I first becam...The irony in all this for me is when I first became involved in MJ/OL back in the day, I thought what I had found was the template for the first century church/messianic community. I saw it (I guess rather naively) as a group of Jewish and Gentile believers in the Messiah worshipping together in peace.<br /><br />No wonder I sometimes feel like I've collided with a brick wall at 100 mph. <br /><br />If the template can't be found or established so that the community of faith actually behaves like we like each other (Yeshua said we were to even love each other), are we really living out our faith for His glory?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-10653965461549204952010-07-12T19:00:21.044-06:002010-07-12T19:00:21.044-06:00>> I think of the Messianic movement beginni...>> <i>I think of the Messianic movement beginning the 1st Century</i><br /><br />You're not alone in that thinking, James. Rabbi Joshua Brumbach of the <a href="http://yinonblog.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Yinon blog</a> has said something similar in the past. (I can dig up the link for anyone curious...)Judah Gabriel Himangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277699587853707632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-56665891119390718142010-07-08T15:43:02.504-06:002010-07-08T15:43:02.504-06:00I probably didn't, Derek. Conceptually, I thin...I probably didn't, Derek. Conceptually, I think of the Messianic movement beginning in the 1st Century. For me, that's the model of what it's all supposed to look like. If we could somehow go back in time and see how Paul and Peter established these communities and how they progressed over time, we'd have a much better understanding of how to model similar communities today.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-21571839032344637702010-07-08T14:55:54.139-06:002010-07-08T14:55:54.139-06:00Wow, James, just saw this. When I said "MJ wa...Wow, James, just saw this. When I said "MJ was started as a movement for Jewish people" I was talking about Messianic Judaism as it began in the 1970's. I wasn't talking about the Yeshua-movement which started after the resurrection of Yeshua.<br /><br />You knew that, didn't you?<br /><br />Derek Lemanderek4messiah.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02116000293798063018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-36651173616072392722010-07-07T08:56:49.049-06:002010-07-07T08:56:49.049-06:00Mike,
Keep going on the journey God is taking you...Mike,<br /><br />Keep going on the journey God is taking you, its obvious God is waking up all His people, next I believe there will be unity, at least I hope, but for now, continue in the path, learn the Torah, and find the Blessings in obedience.<br /><br />You will run into certain MJ denominations such as those who hold to BE, who do not want gentiles to experience the blessings in Torah, but just follow God.Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-3593716361009994282010-07-07T08:48:56.945-06:002010-07-07T08:48:56.945-06:00"Jeruz, where did you read that apostles had ..."Jeruz, where did you read that apostles had to wrestle with the idea that circumcision itself "saved"? Even the Pharisaic party didn't claim that circumcision saved anyone! Instead, everyone among the Jewish believers knew that only the redepmtion Yeshua provided saved - especially if one stops to consider that it was the Jewish BELIEVERS in Yeshua who were insisting that Gentiles convert (get circumcised) to Judaism and observe Torah. The understanding among Jews at that time was that without having been circumcised (becoming converts to Judaism) the Gentiles COULDN'T EVEN COME to Yeshua the Jewish Messiah to obtain eternal life.<br /><br />However, G-d showed through Peter and others, that he accepted Gentiles as Gentiles, sans conversion to Judaism or observance of the Mosaic Torah. Even though they were still birds, reptiles, creeping things (meaning they still were Gentiles - G-d didn't change who He himself made them to be), they were made CLEAN by G-d and allowed to partake in the spiritual blessings which belong to Israel (salvation found in Jewish Messiah and citizenship in the Kingdom of G-d)."<br /><br />You obviously can't even understand what you are writing. In Acts 15:1 it states very clearly that the Pharisaic party was instructing gentiles that they could not be saved unless circumcised according to the customs of Moses, something of which the Apostles did not agree with and opposed in other cases. <br /><br />Second, you brought up the fact that God showed Peter that He accepted Gentiles as they are, if you can't see why that is a problem that Peter even had to learn that, then you need to wake up. <br /><br />I hate to burst your bubble, but Judaism is not infallible, it has errors just like Christianity, the sooner you come to that realization, the sooner you can also make peace with that.Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-26273569375030090042010-07-07T08:00:34.752-06:002010-07-07T08:00:34.752-06:00@Mike, I think you've crystalized why a number...@Mike, I think you've crystalized why a number of Gentile Christians are leaving the church and seeking a worship venue that more closely connects to the Bible. I had a conversation last night with <a href="http://torahandgrace.com/" rel="nofollow">Russ</a> (we live only about 20 miles from each other) and he was talking about how at least some Christian churches run "programs" but don't really connect to the foundations of faith, God, Messiah/Christ, and the Bible. People aren't looking for a "program". Paul didn't invent a "program" for Gentile believers.<br /><br />I'm not sure Gentiles are looking for a Judaism (though some think they might be) but rather are looking for something more "back to basics". Since the Jewish people had a relationship with God thousands of years before most Gentiles, it's logical for Gentiles to look in that direction. However, as far as God's intent is concerned, is it the right direction?<br /><br />I think what Gentiles in churches are really asking or should be asking is "What Did Jesus Change?" That is, did the Messiah come just to establish and maintain the status quo between Jews and Gentiles or did he come to add the sheep in the Gentile pen to his flock and for him to become our shepherd?<br /><br />When Gentiles can find the answer to that question and act out our faith and worship in the intent and purpose of our Shepherd, we'll have found what he wants us to find...him.<br /><br />Some Gentiles ask if Messianic Judaism is the only way for Jews and Gentiles to really connect to the Messiah. I asked the question on my congregation's blog <a href="http://shema-yisrael.org/blogspot/2010/04/is-messianic-judaism-a-judaism/" rel="nofollow">Is Messianic Judaism a Judaism?</a> I stopped short of providing an answer because I don't really know as yet (though I know that some people believe they have that answer). I'm still looking. The answer is coming.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-30529885834142911422010-07-07T07:08:46.041-06:002010-07-07T07:08:46.041-06:00Mike, don't make a mistake of trading mainstre...Mike, don't make a mistake of trading mainstream Christianity for a One-Law Christianity (because it's certain NOT Judaism). In the end, I think you'll be worse off - there's much more lunacy and bad theology in the One-Law movement's churches than in most stable Christian churches. This includes a very distorted view of the future of Israel, of the very Torah they claim to uphold, of the applicability of Torah to Gentiles and Jews, and often a very negative, rabbi-hating view of mainstream Judaism.<br /><br />If you choose to join a Messianic JEWISH congregation, joining it because you're disappointed with "Christianity" is a very bad idea as well. Rebound relationships rarely work out. Being in a solid, G-d-loving and people-loving non-messianic church is much better than say being in a messianic place with constant strife about how Gentiles should observe Torah, about this law or that law. Besides, most Messianic "Jewish" places differ very little from mainstream Christianity in both theology and practice (or makeup of congregants!), or education of their leaders (most of whom went to Christian Bible colleges).<br /><br />"On Sunday, we plop down in a pew, say a prayer, shake a few hands, and are cleansed. See ya next Sunday bro. This just doesn't seem to be working out to well.On Sunday, we plop down in a pew, say a prayer, shake a few hands, and are cleansed. See ya next Sunday bro. This just doesn't seem to be working out to well.<br /><br />You may just end up saying to each other "See ya next Shabbat" - people's devotion to G-d doesn't depend on them being in a church that bills itself "messianic".<br /><br />Also, the Mosaic Torah G-d gave to Israel cannot be wholesale adopted to any other nation or situation. Everyone can learn from it, and Christianity and Western civilization has indeed adopted many of its MORAL precepts already, but many of it's instructions are specifically for the Jewish people, Jews living in the Land of Israel, and Jews worshiping in the Temple.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-43314969768547616322010-07-06T23:30:08.818-06:002010-07-06T23:30:08.818-06:00Ahron, i suppose im one of those on a trek out of ...Ahron, i suppose im one of those on a trek out of Christianity. Not that it doesn't work well for many millions of people, but I just have problems with the theologies of all the churches I have been attending all my life.<br /><br />I have not yet gotten "on board" with the various, um, denominations? - of the MJM. Just haven't been around the Messianic movement that long. I am most familiar from watching services from Baruch Hashems synagogue.<br /><br />In the churches I attended, many times I used to ask about what Jesus actually did, things like the feasts, kosher eating, Torah stuff. I mean, they say WWJD.. well then.. what DID he do? I was treated like the subject wasn't even worth discussing. After all, the church has replaced the old law, and the people too. Bewildered, I began looking elsewhere. A few questions drive my actions.<br /><br />1. When G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, to me it seems it contains instructions on how to structure a just society. From setting up a justice system, to acceptable behavior, how to worship etc. Sort of a "guide" for society.If you look at every other society, it is invariably plagued with a moral structure that deteriorates very badly. This includes the culture here in the states, where 90% of Americans claim to be Christians. Aren't the "Torah" questions important?<br /><br />2. I see that at times, the Jews themselves didn't follow that guide well, but when they did, they were blessed. Wouldn't another people be blessed if they implemented that guide as best they could?<br /><br />If we as non Jews do not have to keep the "law", but just a few basic principles, then we are left to our own devices. We end up with a society like ours, rife with porn, dope, rights for people doing sinful things. On Sunday, we plop down in a pew, say a prayer, shake a few hands, and are cleansed. See ya next Sunday bro. This just doesn't seem to be working out to well.<br /><br />3. What was G-d thinking when he gave the Torah? - Pause.. waiting for lighting to strike.. - It was a guide how to live just, not how to be saved right? I can't see G-d making such a "guide", only to have it either tossed out completely (Which my Church tells me), or is subject to only a few (What BE tells me). <br /><br />Those are a few of my thoughts. I am careful not to get too hung up on "theology", yet it is something that effects me greatly. Thoughts please..<br /><br />MikeMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08561074565335343983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-22578356278912369282010-07-06T19:42:17.893-06:002010-07-06T19:42:17.893-06:00So the way I see it is like this:
There are a bun...So the way I see it is like this:<br /><br />There are a bunch of gentiles who are at various levels on a trek out of Christianity and into something different.<br /><br />Messianic Jewish organizations don't have much to offer, this is clear as you have come to realize.<br /><br />Also, "Two-House" Messianic organizations are usually proud of being different from Jews, and offer an alternative to the Messianic <i>Jewish</i> opposition to gentiles.<br /><br />However, both organizations are rarely Torah observant, but are on various levels of observance, from a sola-sctriptura Karaite level (which exists usually among the latter group), to Reform/Conservative-like partial halakhic observance (which usually exists among the former group).<br />Thus, the leaders in each group aren't doing a job to get the people to where they are longing to be.<br /><br />Neither would it be entirely appropriate for Orthodox observance level to be introduced to anyone. This is because "Orthodox" is simply a non-Jewish title attached to Judaism as a result of the Jewish peoples' long exile in lands they don't belong in. It usually is a name attached to institutionalized Judaism that exists as merely a system where everyone follows the status quo. Observant Judaism has only taken on this unfortunately form very recently in history, roughly within the last few hundred years. Room for halakhic reform and innovation, still based on the authority of the Sages mind you, doesn't exist in the set-in-stone forms of exile-Judaism of today.<br /><br />But getting into that last part is futile to the vast majority of Messianic Jews and gentiles who don't believe in the authority of the Sages - so I'm already getting ahead of myself.<br />And because of this disbelief, they unknowingly transgress commands in Dt. 17 and other places. Rabi Yehoshua` was clearly aligned with Beith Hillel, while his rebukes to "the Pharisees" or "certain of the Pharisees" prove to be, in every case, rebukes from a Hillelite to Beith Shammai. Such rebukes are found even in the Talmudh.<br />And during the life of Rabi Yehoshua`, Beith Shammai was in power in the Sanhedrin and that is why Rabi Yehoshua` has to reluctantly advise to heed their rulings, since it would be transgression of plain written Torah commands not to. However, after Rabi Yehoshua`'s time, the view of Beith Hillel reigned supreme. Meaning for example, things like doctors being able to work on Shabath in order to heal would be permitted, as Rabi Yehoshua` argued in favor of the view of Beith Hillel. And thus, ever since, the accepted halakhic view in observant Judaism has been according to this view, rather than that of Beith Shammai.<br /><br />Nonetheless, few Messianics are concerned with how to keep Torah, otherwise such study to find the truth would be commonplace. Instead the Talmudh and the Sages of authentic Torah-Judaism are spoken badly of without reason nor even decent understanding of them. The reason for this is undoubtedly anti-Judaistic indoctrination from the churches and Karaite doctrinal infiltration.<br /><br />These are the obstacles facing the many types of Messianic people, mostly gentiles, from various backgrounds. Contrary to what some might think, I'm in favor of them making it all the way there! The reason I'm so harsh on commonplace Messianic theology, on either side of the aisle, is because I want people, specifically the returning gentiles, to get past the obstacles just mentioned.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm now done writing my novel. Please, don't be afraid to read this through and respond with your thoughts, if you have any. I'm not looking to bash people for disagreeing with me. I will always respect somoene who will honestly take a look at my view without a preset bias.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />AhronJewzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686287769299608846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-48702203906961647082010-07-06T19:27:48.605-06:002010-07-06T19:27:48.605-06:00"And the idea that one was saved by circumcis..."And the idea that one was saved by circumcision according to custom of Moses cannot be taught correctly from scripture, or the apostles would not have opposed it."<br /><br />Jeruz, where did you read that apostles had to wrestle with the idea that circumcision itself "saved"? Even the Pharisaic party didn't claim that circumcision saved anyone! Instead, everyone among the Jewish believers knew that only the redepmtion Yeshua provided saved - especially if one stops to consider that it was the Jewish BELIEVERS in Yeshua who were insisting that Gentiles convert (get circumcised) to Judaism and observe Torah. The understanding among Jews at that time was that without having been circumcised (becoming converts to Judaism) the Gentiles COULDN'T EVEN COME to Yeshua the Jewish Messiah to obtain eternal life.<br /><br />However, G-d showed through Peter and others, that he accepted Gentiles as Gentiles, sans conversion to Judaism or observance of the Mosaic Torah. Even though they were still birds, reptiles, creeping things (meaning they still were Gentiles - G-d didn't change who He himself made them to be), they were made CLEAN by G-d and allowed to partake in the spiritual blessings which belong to Israel (salvation found in Jewish Messiah and citizenship in the Kingdom of G-d).Gene Shomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-38108242045958426232010-07-06T15:15:35.485-06:002010-07-06T15:15:35.485-06:00**"Jeruz, you made a snide remark about the s...**"Jeruz, you made a snide remark about the supposed anachronistic nature of "ritual conversions" within Judaism, but what do you think Gentiles getting "circumcised according to custom of Moses", if not a conversion procedure by itself? You imagine that conversions were totally informal for the converts to Judaism (especially males)?"**<br /><br />I don't think a simple reading of Torah can suffice the "ritual conversion" specifics today, sorry. And the idea that one was saved by circumcision according to custom of Moses cannot be taught correctly from scripture, or the apostles would not have opposed it.<br /><br />**"You can say that even baptism today is an anachronistic ritual, since even those who practiced in the first century, John the Baptist or even Yeshua, didn't take it from the scriptures - it was really never specified in the Bible as a procedure for any kind of spiritual and PUBLIC conversion (but rather to remove physical defilement / bodily pollution) in the same sense it is today. And yet, here we have Yeshua instructing his disciples to be baptized. Unless of course one realized that this was a standard practice of Judaism accepted by Yeshua himself to indicate a new birth/renewal. (BTW, Jews even today baptize/mikvah their converts - anachronistically and non-bibically as you may claim)."**<br /><br />Baptism in the sense of Mikvah is found all through the bible, but the context of it being used as a token of faith your are correct... the same with circumcision, when it becomes either one(baptism or circumcision) the means for converting, then we have a problem, and this is the very idea of ritual conversion and the very idea of baptism in some denominations of Christianity. Simply put, it is done in error.Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-80922568507645475782010-07-06T15:01:08.775-06:002010-07-06T15:01:08.775-06:00"Just because I don't think Judaism is in..."Just because I don't think Judaism is infallible, does not mean I am anti-Judaism."<br /><br />Jeruz, you made a snide remark about the supposed anachronistic nature of "ritual conversions" within Judaism, but what do you think Gentiles getting "circumcised according to custom of Moses", if not a conversion procedure by itself? You imagine that conversions were totally informal for the converts to Judaism (especially males)?<br /><br />You can say that even baptism today is an anachronistic ritual, since even those who practiced in the first century, John the Baptist or even Yeshua, didn't take it from the scriptures - it was really never specified in the Bible as a procedure for any kind of spiritual and PUBLIC conversion (but rather to remove physical defilement / bodily pollution) in the same sense it is today. And yet, here we have Yeshua instructing his disciples to be baptized. Unless of course one realized that this was a standard practice of Judaism accepted by Yeshua himself to indicate a new birth/renewal. (BTW, Jews even today baptize/mikvah their converts - anachronistically and non-bibically as you may claim).Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-47354936074319759882010-07-06T14:32:54.030-06:002010-07-06T14:32:54.030-06:00**"Your anti-Judaism is showing, cover it up,...**"Your anti-Judaism is showing, cover it up, Jeruz."**<br /><br />Gene, <br /><br />Just because I don't think Judaism is infallible, does not mean I am anti-Judaism, the same goes with Christianity, and its errors, but I am not against Christianity.<br /><br />But you seem to think Judaism is infallible, which speaks volumes to me.Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-81063422125184938552010-07-06T13:54:12.357-06:002010-07-06T13:54:12.357-06:00Jeruz, I haven't really been considering the s...Jeruz, I haven't really been considering the sojourner or alien among Israel at this point. I suppose a great deal hinges on what we believe the coming of Yeshua did or didn't do to offer Gentiles a change of status relative to God. As I told Gene, I don't know what that means. It's why I'm searching. <br /><br />Each Judeo/Christian (if I can be allowed to use the term) tradition has their own interpretation of what Yeshua's birth, life, death, and resurrection did or didn't change. I'd rather not assume that one tradition's interpretation is correct vs another's at this point. Does the Bible say Yeshua changed anything relative to Gentiles, and if so, what?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-74246619017813583562010-07-06T13:48:43.466-06:002010-07-06T13:48:43.466-06:00Gene, I don't believe that I've held the a...Gene, I don't believe that I've held the assumption of "One Law". In my discussion of the Acts 15 letter, I've reached no conclusions about the limits of Gentile observance vs Jewish observance. In fact, I feel like I'm bending over backwards to avoid "One Law". On the other hand, I haven't dismissed it out of hand either. I continue to look at the options. I haven't arrived at a destination, yet. Nor to I promise to arrive at the conclusions that will agree with everyone else. I just don't know yet.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-85684116267824135272010-07-06T13:43:44.255-06:002010-07-06T13:43:44.255-06:00Thanks for your detailed reply Gene, however I thi...Thanks for your detailed reply Gene, however I think you're making some assumptions about my statements. I have reached few if any conclusions about what Gentiles did and didn't do and about where Gentiles did and didn't meet for worship. I never said that the Gentiles took on the full yoke of Torah, I've only raised the question about how all this was enacted.<br /><br />As I've tried to emphasize, I'm slowing this process way down and I'm not anxious to jump from A to Z. I hadn't even considered Romans 16 at this point, so you're assuming that about me. <br /><br />I'm only trying to discover what the Bible does seem to say about it the first century Jews and Gentiles and what it means for us all today. I'm not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat and I don't have to reach any conclusions in a giant hurry. As I hope you've realized, I'm trying to be as measured and deliberate as I can be without assuming one particular theological perspective or another.<br /><br />I know you've already come to your own conclusions for yourself but try to understand that I'm re-examining my own understanding as honestly as I can.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-35574778549201663272010-07-06T13:42:53.415-06:002010-07-06T13:42:53.415-06:00"Of course you will get the absurd responses ..."Of course you will get the absurd responses where someone will try to slam "Ritual Conversion" anachronistically"<br /><br />Your anti-Judaism is showing, cover it up, Jeruz.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-49683387317487804572010-07-06T13:41:49.264-06:002010-07-06T13:41:49.264-06:00James, it's your blog and your spiritual journ...James, it's your blog and your spiritual journey, but if I may note something: your posts seem to be about you starting with the assumption of 'One Law' being true (instead of "discarding all assumptions" as you intended to do), and working backwards to support that conclusion (which seems to be already foregone in your mind).<br /><br />If I may suggest, discard your "One Law" assumption (as hard as it may be to put away own bias), and instead try exploring those scriptures which your "opponents" say indicate that Gentiles are NOT under obligation to Mosaic Torah nor are they expected by G-d to worship as Jews (i.e. celebrate Shabbats or the Jewish holy days, share kosher meals, and all the standard things any Jewish people do in their synagogues). That should make it much more interesting.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-34709006307674296062010-07-06T13:37:49.149-06:002010-07-06T13:37:49.149-06:00James,
I agree about the part when it comes to im...James,<br /><br />I agree about the part when it comes to imitating the Master, seems clear. <br /><br />I notice you haven't spoken much on the sojourner joining Israel, what happens when a gentile joins Israel? Are they considered a native born? Are they to obey the Torah? Etc. Just wanting to add that into the mix. Of course you will get the absurd responses where someone will try to slam "Ritual Conversion" anachronistically into the concept of the sojourner, just brush over that nonsense, lol.zion/jeruznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-31636922813078528532010-07-06T13:14:15.915-06:002010-07-06T13:14:15.915-06:00James, your assumption, of course, is that the &qu...James, your assumption, of course, is that the "Churches of the Gentiles" mentioned in the Bible in Romans 16:4 (which is in itself is but one indication that Gentiles believers met in their OWN distinct communities) worshiped and lived according to Torah and Jewish traditions and that Jewish believers left behind their synagogues where they already worshiped along side their fellow Jews and joined their newly found Gentile brethren in new multinational communities, or "Churches of the Gentiles". <br /><br />I think it's a pure speculation, not supported either by scripture or historical evidence. What we see, however, is that Jewish followers of Messiah remained in their own synagogues among their own people / went to the Temple (if they lived in the Land), etc. After Peter's vision, the Jewish disciples indeed started fellowshipping with Gentile believers by meeting with them in their homes / or by breaking bread with them in some other setting (I am sure, kosher bread, but only for the sake of Torah observant Jews - not Gentiles). <br /><br />Some of the first Gentile believers were G-d fearers who indeed attended synagogues even before their coming to faith in Yeshua. One should research what role did G-d fearers play in first century Judaism and what the view of them in the traditional Judaism. Not being full converts to Judaism, G-d fearers did not put themselves under the yoke of Torah at all, but simply observed certain Jewish things (perhaps holy days) and prayed to the Jewish G-d.<br /><br />However, as more Gentiles were being reached with the Good News, many of these new Gentile believers did not come from the ranks of G-d fearers. Many were in areas devoid of Jews (especially after Jews were kicked out from the Roman Empire). There's no historical indication that they were "Torah observant" or viewed themselves equally obligated to Torah (that's a Judaizing heresy that Shaul so strongly confronted in Galatians and disciples in Acts 15).Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.com