tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post6359638639695775470..comments2023-07-18T16:31:37.984-06:00Comments on Searching for the Light on the Path: ComparisonsJameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-56170873062203267932010-07-21T16:15:35.323-06:002010-07-21T16:15:35.323-06:00Dan,
As usual your comments are inspiring.
Do y...Dan,<br /><br />As usual your comments are inspiring. <br /><br />Do you use a study guide to arrive at those insights, or does YHVH just speak to you directly, allowing you to bypass scripture altogether?Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-63930654591266833672010-07-21T15:46:31.702-06:002010-07-21T15:46:31.702-06:00>>First century life, including faith and wo...>>First century life, including faith and worship, cannot be duplicated without bringing the first century back in its entirety.<<<br /><br />Hmmm....We of course see all over the Apostolic writing where The Apostle of the "ephramites" Paul is starting new "ephramite" temples among the "ephramites" nations...<br /><br />We can also read where Yeshua is teaching the Apostles to go and make "ephramites" throughout the nations?.....LOL!Dan Benzvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-67322893325069023122010-07-21T14:05:50.574-06:002010-07-21T14:05:50.574-06:00"nlarge your tent, move the stakes out a litt..."nlarge your tent, move the stakes out a little, let your brothers and sisters in, we can all rejoice together in the great and wonderful plan that YHVH has given to ALL His people."<br /><br />Efrayim... G-d already enlarged the Kingdom for my brothers and sisters - the Christians (believers of the nations). They will reside with their Jewish brothers and sisters in the Commonwealth of Israel (which includes Israel and includes the nations which will retain their G-d given identity and calling).Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-63097520976806428562010-07-21T13:57:59.817-06:002010-07-21T13:57:59.817-06:00But Gene, you do believe the way I do, only in a m...But Gene, you do believe the way I do, only in a much smaller circle. <br /><br />For you, Jews = Israel and Israel = Jews.<br /><br />For me, Israel = Jews and Israel. The Jews are part of Israel. What's wrong with that? Enlarge your tent, move the stakes out a little, let your brothers and sisters in, we can all rejoice together in the great and wonderful plan that YHVH has given to ALL His people.<br /><br />EfRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-85483994807286914022010-07-21T13:16:27.935-06:002010-07-21T13:16:27.935-06:00"There are those who seem to carry about the ..."There are those who seem to carry about the same attitude though. I guess that hasn't changed much."<br /><br />Efrayim... since you happen believe that you are actually a "lost Israelite", I understand why YOU would believe that Gentiles have a right to a Jewish (Israelite, in your vernacular) identity and faith expression, and why all of Jewish-Gentile distinctive should be done away with as a part of "reunification of all tribes of Israel". That's perfectly understandable - if I believed in that stuff, I'd feel the same way.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-80827630941533462442010-07-21T13:02:47.911-06:002010-07-21T13:02:47.911-06:00James,
I like what you've done with the place...James,<br /><br />I like what you've done with the place. I think it is turning out nicely.<br /><br />I find it incredibly frustrating at times when I come across those who think that Greek and Jewish fishermen have no business fishing side by side. You know those Greeks, always stealing Jewish fish.<br /><br />Since the days are getting short and the wicked are not resting at all from their wicked plans, I am hoping that it will not take a severe trial of persecution to get the believers in Messiah together for His plan.<br /><br />First century life, including faith and worship, cannot be duplicated without bringing the first century back in its entirety. Though our trust rests in the same Messiah that they put their trust in, we are too far removed to recreate anything that might even resemble those unique dynamics.<br /><br />There are those who seem to carry about the same attitude though. I guess that hasn't changed much.<br /><br />EfRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800949441721572449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-67612717146302079762010-07-21T11:53:13.349-06:002010-07-21T11:53:13.349-06:00I understand your deep desire to experience that &...<i>I understand your deep desire to experience that "first century church" atmosphere - many in Christianity have tried to recreate that "feeling" time and time again - but they always recreate it in their own image, what ever fills their imagination. But how can you even begin to recreate that (assuming we can even remotely approximate what it may have been like) in a community that virtually has no Jews and is Gentile led taught and populated (as is the majority of One-Law congregations)?</i><br /><br />First of all, you have previously said that there were most likely plenty of first century worship communities with few if any Jews in attendance, so why can't Gentiles have a worship community with "few or no Jewish members"? Also, while you've called me "open minded", you still assume my goal is to create a traditional "One Law" congregation rather than taking me at face value and at least entertaining the thought I could be sincere in what I say. You also are being somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, you say the only valid first century Gentile worship community would have to be lead by Jewish people but on the other hand, you have no problem with Gentiles self-leading modern Christian churches. Is Gentile self-leadership in the worship of the Jewish Messiah only valid if we do it on Sunday? Why can't I be part of a community that chooses to respond to Leviticus 11 as far as food and who chooses to meet on Saturday? How does that devalue you, MJ, or the larger Judaism in the world?<br /><br /><i>Also, why not begin with an attitude respectful of a Jewish expressed desire that their unique calling and identity not be supplanted by others, Jewish identity not be relegated to mere race and ethnicity, an instead view Jewishness as it has been intended by G-d himself - as a unique and uniquely expressed relationship to the covenants and specifically to Torah (I am not saying that YOU, James are not respectful of that, but that's is what many MJs see in One-Law movement)? </i><br /><br />Since you say this comment isn't directed specifically at me, then I have no answer. I've tried as best I could to express respect for other worship forms including Judaism (MJ or otherwise), the traditional Christian church, and those Gentiles who feel drawn to keep the whole of Torah. I know I can get on my high horse from time to time, but that makes my desire to seek God in this manner no less sincere or valid.<br /><br />I'm not saying I can recreate the first century "church" as it existed in the Greek diaspora at the time of Paul, but I don't see my only valid worship option as joining the Nazarene or Baptist church down the road, either. It is possible to reduce the "noise" introduced by 20 centuries of post-Biblical, Christian tradition, burn away at least some of the dross, and get closer to a more pure product. I don't know if I will success, but with God's help, I'm going to try.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-59877533696720973642010-07-21T11:18:58.164-06:002010-07-21T11:18:58.164-06:00"I'm only saying that, for me, I'm se..."I'm only saying that, for me, I'm seeking a greater understanding and presence in that worship entity first experienced by Gentiles who came out of polytheism and came to faith in the Jewish Messiah in the time of Paul."<br /><br />I understand your deep desire to experience that "first century church" atmosphere - many in Christianity have tried to recreate that "feeling" time and time again - but they always recreate it in their own image, what ever fills their imagination. But how can you even begin to recreate that (assuming we can even remotely approximate what it may have been like) in a community that virtually has no Jews and is Gentile led taught and populated (as is the majority of One-Law congregations)? <br /><br />Also, why not begin with an attitude respectful of a Jewish expressed desire that their unique calling and identity not be supplanted by others, Jewish identity not be relegated to mere race and ethnicity, an instead view Jewishness as it has been intended by G-d himself - as a unique and uniquely expressed relationship to the covenants and specifically to Torah (I am not saying that YOU, James are not respectful of that, but that's is what many MJs see in One-Law movement)?Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-30443562400232001262010-07-21T10:31:02.159-06:002010-07-21T10:31:02.159-06:00Actually, I have read one of the articles on Seth&...Actually, I have read one of the articles on Seth's blog and commented a time or two. Haven't visited lately and yes, I know there are a lot of dynamic opinions about his decision.<br /><br />Frankly, Seth should do what he believes is right, including attending a Sunday keeping church. One of the guys at my congregation also goes to church with his granddaughter on Sundays. I don't have a problem with that. My parents go to a Sunday keeping church and I don't have a problem with that, either.<br /><br />I'm only saying that, for me, I'm seeking a greater understanding and presence in that worship entity first experienced by Gentiles who came out of polytheism and came to faith in the Jewish Messiah in the time of Paul. It's what I thought I had found before. Now I'm taking a closer look. Still no promises on the outcome, so no jumping from A to Z, guys.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-68077660019839201012010-07-21T10:13:02.434-06:002010-07-21T10:13:02.434-06:00"I am quite posetive that chapter 4 will chan..."I am quite posetive that chapter 4 will change you mind. I am refering to Kinzer's book..."<br /><br />I think that James is a lot more open-minded than you give him credit, Dan.<br /><br />James, I would like to introduce you (unless you've seen it before) to a blog of Seth (JudeoXian): http://judeoxian.wordpress.com<br /><br />Seth is a former One-Law proponent who has come to realization that One-Law theology of insisting on Jewish/Torah lifestyle for Gentiles is flawed and detrimental to the Body. The last two posts on his blog are quite interesting and will probably some of of OLers blood boil - he decided to rejoin a church.Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-26397959217454196892010-07-21T09:53:08.753-06:002010-07-21T09:53:08.753-06:00No offense taken, Dan. I do plan on writing a comp...No offense taken, Dan. I do plan on writing a comprehensive review of the book once I'm done, but felt compelled to share a few first thoughts. I don't doubt that subsequent sections of the book will modify my impressions.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-24533547432262350772010-07-21T09:48:40.854-06:002010-07-21T09:48:40.854-06:00James,
No offense here, but in Israel we had a ph...James,<br /><br />No offense here, but in Israel we had a phrase that says: "Don't show a fool only half the work." They might think that that all she wrote. I think is best for you to read the whole book before you start commenting. I am quite posetive that chapter 4 will change you mind. I am refering to Kinzer's book...Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-79469877479459392132010-07-21T09:43:57.038-06:002010-07-21T09:43:57.038-06:00You're shooting way ahead of where I am in the...You're shooting way ahead of where I am in the book right now, Gene. ;-)<br /><br />I have to disagree that the "church" was <i>originally</i> based on "Christ" (as opposed to Yeshua the Messiah), though. At its very beginnings, Paul wouldn't have created a brand new thing in which Gentiles could worship and that was wholly divorced from the source (which is what both modern Rabbinic Judaism and the modern Evangelical church both believe). Gentile worship of the Jewish Messiah was originally based on Jewish worship of the Jewish Messiah. probably going back before Yeshua to those few Gentile God-fearers huddling in the back seats of the synagogue fearfully reaching out to the God of the universe.<br /><br />While it's not out of the realm of possibility or reason that two separate or perhaps overlapping worship forms exist for Jews and Gentiles relative to the Jewish Messiah, I'd argue that in its original form, Gentile worship of the Jewish Messiah didn't look very much like what the 21st century Evangelical church looks. <br /><br />I also noticed in the beginning of the book, Kinzer goes out of his way to try and convince his Christian audience to see themselves, while reading the book, as more members of the <i>"Yeshua-faith"</i> or <i>"Yeshua-believers"</i> movement rather than as <i>"Christianity"</i> per se (see the book's Introduction section). This is exactly what I was trying to get at in my previous blog article <i>"What's in a Name?"</i> Words and labels can't just be tossed about casually. They have meaning and intent. It's that first century Messiah-worshiping-Gentile meaning and intent I'm trying to get to, not something 20 centuries removed.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-83032353796734523102010-07-21T09:24:31.062-06:002010-07-21T09:24:31.062-06:00"I'm more surprised (so far) by how Kinze..."I'm more surprised (so far) by how Kinzer seems to be saying he is trying to draw MJ and the Church closer to each other, not drive them further apart. That's not what I would have imagined before getting the book."<br /><br />That's the gist of Kinzer's book - there are TWO types of followers of Yeshua all throughout the Bible, a Jew and a Gentile. We are all children of the same G-d and are brothers in Messiah, both must respect each other's uniqueness in the Body of the Messiah, and appreciate and preserve one another's differences (since they are there by G-d's design) - not merely our ethnic/racial differences, but differences in our CALLINGS, our cultures, and in our expressions of faith to G-d (which includes differences in our obligation to Torah). Kinzer lays out his understanding that Christianity (in all its various "flavors - but all of them are based on "Christ") has been and is the mechanism through which G-d has worked with the nations. Messianic Jews and Christian Gentiles must forge a new relationship based on mutual respect of each others' differences, but focus on what we have in common (one L-rd) rather than let our unique callings (which should be preserved) be a hindrance to unity. As one MJ author once said: "G-d's agenda is not the homogenizing of our species."Gene Shlomovichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-45408368784704485552010-07-21T09:01:23.125-06:002010-07-21T09:01:23.125-06:00Don't get me wrong. It's not like anything...Don't get me wrong. It's not like anything in Chilton's book caught me by surprise, though I am rather taken with how he weaves the fabric of first century Jerusalem, making it come alive for the reader. I'm more surprised (so far) by how Kinzer seems to be saying he is trying to draw MJ and the Church closer to each other, not drive them further apart. That's not what I would have imagined before getting the book.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593266343873200105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6747998155058121772.post-81956360721501898572010-07-21T08:45:26.640-06:002010-07-21T08:45:26.640-06:00I'll keep reading and render my reports period...<i>I'll keep reading and render my reports periodically, but one thing that this comparison shows me so far is that Chilton's work promotes a separation between church and (Messianic) synagogue far more effectively than does Kinzer.</i><br /><br />That is because the concept originally comes from Christianity.<br /><br />That their is the Body of Messiah, the Church, which are gentiles(Christians) and then there is another body, which is not the church, Israel, separate of Messiah... etc. <br /><br />This is where some doctrines such as Christians(Gentiles) will be rapture'd up into heaven, eating pork sandwiches, while the Jews(Israel) will be down on earth suffering through the great tribulation. And there are many doctrines like this... One very well known one is replacement theology.<br /><br />Ultimately there are two bodies, two Lord's, two, two, two... sad thing is, I can't for the life of me find that in the scripture, in fact quite the opposite.Zion/Jeruznoreply@blogger.com