Tuesday, August 3, 2010

Gentiles and Torah

I've been pondering the Messianic Jewish/Bilateral Ecclesiology (MJ/BE) position on the portions of Torah to which Gentile believers in Yeshua are believed to be obligated. Over the past month or so, I've been publicly airing my issues and concerns about Gentiles (well, me anyway) as related to a Hebraic worship of the Messiah. I understand that most non-Jews who have come to faith in Jesus express their worship in the various denominations of the Christian church, but there is a population of us who seem called out to a different expression; one based on a position not entirely filtered through the lens of 20 centuries of post-Biblical Gentile theology and tradition, which often includes supersessionism.

While I now believe it is impossible, or at least extremely unlikely, that we can ever re-create the first century church in the modern era, we can re-evaluate our understanding of the Bible and attempt to glean more of the intent of the original authors relative to their context as Jews with a Jewish worldview of God, faith, and how Gentiles fit into it all as a result of Yeshua's command to make us all disciples (Matthew 28:19-20).

To the best of my understanding, the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) view of an authentic Jewish worship of Messiah Yeshua is largely based on Orthodox Jewish worship and theology. Without performing a detailed examination of how they see their foundation, I will assume that, except for having faith in Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah, all the congregations affiliated with the UMJC understand the Torah, Oral Law, and all other aspects of Jewish life in Messiah as identical to the Orthodox perspective. Remember, this is an assumption, since I cannot know how every UMJC congregation is organized. I'm also going to assume that UMJC affiliated synagogues agree with and are modeled on the propositions outlined in Mark Kinzer's book Postmissionary Messianic Judaism: Redefining Christian Engagement with the Jewish People.

With those assumptions in place, let's take a look at what I've been told is the length, depth, and breadth of the Torah to which all believing Gentiles are obligated. You'll find it in Acts 15:23-29:
With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul - men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
According to MJ/BE, that's it. That's the entire portion of written Torah Gentiles must obey. Seems kind of incomplete, doesn't it? Actually, there's more. From the MJ/BE perspective, at least from what I've been told within the various comments in the Messianic blogosphere, Gentiles are obligated to a larger Torah, but it's the one written on our hearts.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) -Romans 2:12-15
This is sort of like saying "let your conscience be your guide". I don't know if Paul intended to apply that comment to just Gentiles who have come to faith in Yeshua or to all Gentiles everywhere (pagans, atheists, and so on), but a quick review of human history seems to show that people aren't beings of great conscience or morality. True, you could argue that the historical view simply indicates there is sin in the world, but whatever God has written on our hearts doesn't seem to be amazingly evident.

It also matters, as I just said, if Paul is applying that "writing on the heart" to just Gentile Yeshua-believers or to all humanity. If the latter, then the only thing that functionally changes for a Gentile when he becomes a believer is what is written in the Acts 15 letter and everyone, Yeshua-believer or not, will be ultimately judged by the writing on our hearts. If the former, then, in addition to the Torah presented in the Acts 15 letter, when we Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit, God's Torah is, at that moment, written on our hearts and we gain a new understanding of our lives in Him and become a "new person".
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! -2 Corinthians 5:17
MJ/BE says that Gentile believers don't need to be obligated to the written Torah because, as Paul says in Romans 2, Gentiles are obligated to and will be judged by the Torah that is written on our hearts. We don't need the physical, written, Torah or the Oral Law, or any of the other Jewish understandings of the will of God given to the Children of Israel at Sinai or developed over the subsequent thousands of years by the Jewish sages. Those understandings, according to MJ/BE, represent the unique obligations the Jewish people have to the Torah and to God and that Jews who do not fulfill their obligations are subject to consequences that Gentiles will never have to face.

The big, fat, furry question sitting in the middle of the room with us is, if the majority of the Torah that Gentiles are obligated to is written on our hearts, just exactly what is written there?

Let's get back to some of the assumptions I previously made about MJ/BE relative to Orthodox Judaism. In Judaism (the non-Messianic kind), Gentiles do not have to become Jews through conversion in order to worship God or to merit a place in the world to come (a Christian would say "go to heaven"). According to Jewish tradition, Noah, from whom all humanity issues forth, was given seven laws by God. These are the laws that all of humanity is obligated to obey. You've probably heard of them before but I'll list them here again:
  1. not to commit idolatry
  2. not to commit blasphemy
  3. not to commit murder
  4. not to have forbidden sexual relations
  5. not to commit theft
  6. not to eat flesh cut from a living animal
  7. to establish courts of justice to punish violators of the other six laws
Found at mechon-mamre.org.

The following quote from the same site renders a particular detail that you may not have gotten before, even if you have been aware of the Noahide Laws:
These commandments may seem fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. But according to the Torah only those Gentiles who observe these laws because God commanded them in His Torah will enjoy life in the World to Come (emphasis mine): If they observe them just because they seem reasonable or because they think that God commanded them in some way other than in the Torah, they might as well not obey them so far as a part in the World to Come is concerned.
If we assume that the MJ/BE viewpoint of Judaism and of Gentiles must be consistent with larger Judaism (and Dr. Kinzer makes this point abundantly clear in his aforementioned book), then MJ/BE must believe that A. the Noahide Laws apply to all Gentiles, whether they have faith in Yeshua or not, and B. that Gentile compliance to the requirements of the Noahide Law must be based on a reading of and an understanding of those laws as presented in the Torah! Wow!

From an Orthodox point of view, that means Gentiles are responsible for reading and studying those portions of the Torah that directly apply to them. The whole "written on our hearts" part isn't sufficient from an Orthodox point of view and I am not sure an Orthodox Jewish sage would even think of Gentile compliance to the Noahide laws in those terms. If you "blend" the Orthodox principles with the MJ/BE understanding, you could reasonably believe that the Noahide Laws are both written on our hearts (since they are practiced in one way or another in most human societies) and written in the Torah for human benefit.

Let's apply that back to the Acts 15 letter. If, as traditional Judaism believes, Gentiles must learn, understand, and accept those portions of the Torah that apply to them in order to operationalize those laws in our lives, then it seems we can reasonably expand that principle to the portions of Torah outlined in the Acts 15 letter. Let's take a simple example. Murder.
Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. -Genesis 9:6
According to traditional Jewish understanding, this is the commandment given to all mankind to not murder, as opposed to the commandment not to murder listed in Exodus 20 which is specifically aimed at the Jewish nation. Seems simple enough. Genesis 9 tells all mankind not to murder and Exodus 20 gives the commandment specifically to the Children of Israel. Now let's consider something not quite as obvious.
The Talmud contains many references to righteous gentiles whose behaviour is held up as a model for all people. The example of Dama ben Netina is known to all Jewish children (Kidushin 31a): ‘They asked R. Eliezer how far one should go in honoring parents. He said to them: Go and see how one idol worshipper in Ashdod honored his father, and Dama ben Netina was his name. The sages wished to purchase gems from him for the Ephod [for a tremendous profit] … but the key [to the box containing the gems] was under his father’s pillow [while his father was sleeping] and he did not trouble his father [by waking him even though he gave up a tremendous profit].’ Dama was rewarded for his virtue the next year when a red heifer [required for the Temple service] was born in his flock. When he sold it to the sages he told them that he knew that they would pay any price he asked for it, but he asked only for the amount he had not earned the previous year when he refrained from waking his father.
Wait a minute. I didn't see anything in the Seven Noahide Laws or the Jerusalem letter about honoring parents, yet this portion of the Talmud (I collected a list of all the references to Gentiles in the Talmud on my congregation's blog some time ago) seems to indicate quite strongly that even an idol worshipper in Ashdod could be held up as an example of how far to go in honoring one's parents. But where do we get that from?
Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. -Exodus 20:12
True, this is one of the commandments Moses brought down from Sinai to the Children of Israel and it specifically mentions "living long in the land that Hashem is giving you" (the Children of Israel). On the one hand, you can say the commandment must only apply to the Children of Israel since, as far as I know, Gentiles aren't inheritors of one square inch of the physical Land of Israel. On the other hand, if the Talmud considers it a righteous deed by a Gentile, even an idol worshipper, to honor his or her parents, and Gentiles are allowed, and in fact required, to study those parts of the Torah that apply to them, how much of a stretch do I have to make to be able to study Exodus 20:12 as it applies to me? No, I don't mean the "Land" part, but the "honoring my parents" part. Sure, it's written on my heart. I'll agree to that much, but as Paul said:
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." -Romans 7:7
While we may have an inate sense of right and wrong based on a spiritual process we commonly call a "conscience", reading the specifics of that conscience within us is a little like trying to read the pages of a book that's at the bottom of a swimming pool when you're treading water six feet above. How many people who were atheists became convicted of their sins, not only through the process of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and receiving the Holy Spirit, but specifically by reading the portions of the Bible that talk about adultry, coveting, and theft? If you ask human beings to try and determine what the will of God is for our lives almost completely from a spiritual or internal sense, are we always going to get it right? Maybe Spider-Man has a sense that tells him when danger is near, but mere mortals often confuse spiritual communication with their various emotional states. Consider these words:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. -1 John 4:1-3
As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. -Acts 17:10-12
According to John, you test the spirits by what they have to say about the Messiah. If the spirits acknowledge that Messiah Yeshua came from God in the flesh, that spirit is from God. However, the Bereans (apparently including "prominent Greek women and many Greek men") tested Paul by checking everything he said against the scriptures to make sure he was "preaching" consistently with the Word of God. Can we not verify the Torah written on our hearts by checking it out in the scriptures?

I was going to put all of my research into one blog post and present it here, but I've been told that I can get really long-winded and wordy and it's tough for people to find the time to read the blogging equivalent of War and Peace. I do have significant material to present in relation to Gentiles being allowed and required to study the parts of Torah that apply to us, even in the Messianic age, and we still haven't settled on exactly what parts of Torah apply to Gentiles. We've seen what the Jerusalem Council had to say on the matter and we've seen how traditional Judaism applies the Noahide Laws as a requirement for Gentiles. We have further seen that, in the Talmud, honoring one's parents is considered righteous for Gentiles as well as for Jews.

I believe there's much more to learn and understand about Gentiles, the Torah, and the Messiah which I'll address in my next blog post.

Blessings.

26 comments:

Gene Shlomovich said...

"We have further seen that, in the Talmud, honoring one's parents is considered righteous for Gentiles as well as for Jews."

Again, the commandment to honor one's parents is a part of obvious universally accepted "moral code". Honoring one's parents and elders in general is found in most ancient cultures, including those which had zero exposure to Torah.

We also read the story of Noah and his son Ham dishonoring his father and his progeny suffering grave consequences as a result of his sin. No need for an expressed commandment - Noah's other sons naturally understood that their father was to be honored and covered him up.

James said...

Ah, but you say it yourself, "We also read the story of Noah and his son Ham dishonoring his father and his progeny suffering grave consequences as a result of his sin."

I believe there is benefit for Gentiles to study the Bible (and obviously, Genesis is a formal part of the written Torah) to gain insights into conducting a lifestyle of righteousness. Not everything has to be interpreted as a specific commandment for the Children of Israel. Concepts such as charity, compassion, visiting the sick, helping your neighbor, can benefit, not only the Jew, but every human being.

While you can say all of this is written on the hearts of humanity (which would include Jewish humanity), we receive the specific narrative of how such principles are lived out in the Bible. I'm not saying that Gentiles and Jews would live out such principles in identical ways (though I haven't finished exploring this concept yet), but I'm saying that there is a more significant overlap than can be accounted for in Acts 15. There's more in the written record that can be applied to the script that God has rendered on each person's soul than is contained in a simple letter written to a few Gentile congregations in the first century diaspora. How much more, I intend to find out.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"I believe there is benefit for Gentiles to study the Bible (and obviously, Genesis is a formal part of the written Torah) to gain insights into conducting a lifestyle of righteousness."

No doubt. In fact, Christianity's de-emphasizing of the "Old Testament" has been to its detriment, not just in general conduct (I think most committed Christians are very moral people), but also of how it views itself in relation to Israel.

Russ said...

James,

That is exactly right. And I wonder why the only prophetic promise of YHVH writing His Torah on anyone's heart was made to the house of Judah and the house of Israel. I may have missed it, so if someone can show me where in scripture YHVH promised to write His Torah on the hearts of all the Gentiles, please let me know.

And when those of the nations searched the scriptures for these same answers, where would they look? Did Sha'ul provide them with guided readings so they could see their place in the grand scheme?

Good stuff Jim, keep 'em coming...

Ef

Gene Shlomovich said...

"And I wonder why the only prophetic promise of YHVH writing His Torah on anyone's heart was made to the house of Judah and the house of Israel. I may have missed it, so if someone can show me where in scripture YHVH promised to write His Torah on the hearts of all the Gentiles, please let me know."

Let me translate what Efrayim is trying to say:

Gentiles are not really "Gentiles," but are actually "lost" Israelites. So, when G-d said that he would place His Torah on hearts of Israel (and Judah which is only composed of the Jewish people from Judah and a few other tribes, according to TH theology), he really meant "Gentiles" who didn't know they are Israel (but do now or will later).

James said...

I had neglected to compare Romans 2:15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts to Jeremiah 31:33 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. If you go back to verse 31, it says The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah seemingly indicating some future date, yet Paul's comments in Romans 2 seem to be in the present tense. Setting time frame aside for a second though, it seems like God intends to write or has already written His Law on the hearts and minds of humanity, unless what He intends to write on the Jewish heart is different than what He has already written on the Gentile heart. Don't think I can easily puzzle this one out.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"it seems like God intends to write or has already written His Law on the hearts and minds of humanity, unless what He intends to write on the Jewish heart is different than what He has already written on the Gentile heart."

I believe that G-d will write his Torah on the heart of all followers of Messiah at Redemption. By Torah I presume that the scripture doesn't mean a literal letter by letter writing of Torah on a heart - but figuratively speaking, G-d will circumcise our hearts (which is also an oft repeated figurative saying), which will enable us to KNOW HIM intimately (since it says that once Torah is written on the heart, people - at least ALL of Israel, will no longer have to teach his fellow to know G-d). Since there will be rebellious nations and possibility of punishment in the Millennium (for not coming to Jerusalem on Sukkot, for example), I am not sure that Torah will be written on every Gentile heart (since the times of the Gentiles will be over). Difficult subject indeed.

Dan Benzvi said...

James,

I am Jewish so it is impossible for me to understand your walk. what is in the heart of a Gentile seeker of God.

Your articles are beautiful and help me see and understand what someone in your situation is going through. Having said that, I think that it is time for you to make a decision. It seems to an outsider like me that you are sitting on the fence and kind of enjoying the ride, content for other people to make your decision for you.

I do not mean to offend, but if i were you (a Gentile seeking after God) I would write a very short blog:

Isaiah 56:7 says: "...For MY house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples." God did not say: My two houses will be called, He said ONE HOUSE.

Rom. 11 explains that the root supports both kind of branches, the natural and the grafted in. It does not say that the sap is unequally distributed to the different kind of branches.

Over, done, a short blog, and my decision is written out for me....Hope you can see what I mean. don;t let irresponsible attacs from the likes of Gene shape up your decision for you.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Over, done, a short blog, and my decision is written out for me....Hope you can see what I mean. don;t let irresponsible attacs from the likes of Gene shape up your decision for you."

Dan, you crack me up. In one breath you tell James not to be influenced by me, and then you proceed to give him advice of what he should do instead:)

Judah Gabriel Himango said...

James, I like this series because it takes the BE view and explores it. I think sometimes that can flush out problems that are otherwise neglected as we gloss over these theologies; also we can glean nuggets of good from it.

>>the commandment to honor one's parents is a part of obvious universally accepted "moral code"

Whoa. For a minute there, I thought I was reading Dr. Michael Brown. You see, he believes, along with Greater Christianity, that the "moral code" is all that remains applicable today, regardless of whether you're a Jew or gentile. Jew like Gene? Gentile like James? Moral code is all that's applicable to you, says Christianity.

Perhaps that greatest problem for those advocating a "moral code" is that it's completely subjective.

Are the 10 commandments moral? Yes...err, wait, that includes a sabbath. Crap. Is the sabbath a moral commandment or a ritual one?

Lifestyle questions -- ritual or moral? In my early blog days, gay activists would tell me that all the anti-gay commandments were merely prohibitions against ritual idolatry, and certainly not against a loving relationship between 2 persons of the same sex. Therefore, it was permitted in this new age of in which the vague moral code was to be followed.

The moral code is universally accepted only on the conditional that it's universally subjective.

I guess what I'm saying is, the moral code only thing falls apart for the same reason that much of Christianity is struggling with these issues: if God didn't give concise commandments, it's left to human interpretation. Or as Paul put it, "Without the clear, concise commandment 'Do not covet', I could turn coveting into a virtue!"

Until right-and-wrong stuff is 100% written on our hearts, until we don't have to tell other people "know the Lord", because everyone will know Him -- until that crazy huge stuff happens for us, the Torah is our best written guide to living a Godly life. And Yeshua is the written-guide-in-action, a kind of practical example of Torah. And I say this is for Jew and gentile.

James said...

OK. Here's how I see things.

In the month of July, I pretty much aired my personal angst over the "Messianic" walk I've been traveling, trying to decide if I even had a valid role here. Although 30 days doesn't seem like a long time, I've actually been pondering this issue for about a year and took the month of July to do some detailed "soul searching", readings, blogging, and conversing with a variety of people on this matter. The result, which was my first goal, was to decide to stay where I am right now (I can hear the board at my congregation breathing a collective sigh of relief). Now that I've made that decision comes "part two".

Judah is right when he says I'm examining the role of a Gentile's Messianic worship from inside the MJ/BE perspective. I think my review of Kinzer's book has illustrated that I didn't "drink the Kool-Aid", so to speak, but the best way for me to either confirm or refute MJ/BE doctrine and assumptions is to put myself in the middle of that perspective and work my way out. This blog is the first step in that part of the process. My overall goal is to examine everyone's assumptions (well, as many and as much as I can reasonably manage) to see what comes out in the wash. I seriously doubt that I'll come up with the answer that resolves everyone's differences, but I'd like to take a shot at cleaning at least some of the mud off the windshield so I can get a better look at the road ahead (if you'll pardon the multiple mixed metaphors).

Dan, you seem to be saying that I'm playing both ends against the middle, as if I'm using my blog to manipulate the various commentators, which is certainly not my intent. I'm actually trying very hard not to take any one position against the other but, since MJ/BE seems to have the "loudest voice" in the conversation, at least for the present, it seemed the logical place to begin.

I think I said this someplace before, but my intent is not to try and figure out which one of you guys is "right" but rather, to take a look at the different perspectives and measure those viewpoints against my understanding of the Bible. In a court of law, the "adversarial process" is designed to put the different voices into a crucible, burn away the "dross", and at least attempt to come out with a "pure product". In a sense, that's what I'm trying to do in my discussions in the various Messianic blogs.

I ask that everyone please try not to take any of this personally. We will continue to have differences of opinion but it's those differences, as much as anything, that may help us to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Mike said...

James, this last month, reading your blog has been extremely helpful for me. As a gentile, who is very new to the MJM (as compared to everyone else commenting on these blogs) I have that same drive inside me, that is hard to explain. I read the blogs, from differing schools of thought, trying to find direction. Perhaps that makes me 'on the fence', but as someone discovering something new, I don't want to just jump into the deep end, instead I would rather learn as much as I can, and enrich myself with the thoughts and teachings of many people.

So, this process you have been going through, is not just for you. It mirrors mine, and you have put a lot of things into perspective for me, something that could not be done in one or two posts. This month long process has enabled me do slowly digest different thoughts, which has been wonderful. From reading your blog, I sometimes think I get more out of it than perhaps even you do, because I am starting from scratch, wanting to find a path that is not divisive, but that quenches those strange feelings that have driven me this far. I sense this series coming to an end, but I feel much richer because of it. I thank God, that I ran across this, and I don't think it is coincidence that you decided to do this blog, at a time when I had the same questions you did. Thanks James.

Mike

James said...

@Mike, If I had decided to leave the Messianic walk, this blog might have come to an abrupt end (the thought had crossed my mind more than once), but in some ways, now that I've decided to stay, I'm just getting started. There's a ton of territory to cover relative to a Gentile's relationship with the Jewish Messiah and how Messianic Jews and Gentiles are supposed to "partner up" and interact.

I had hoped that what I started here would benefit others like me and so far I've received a number of comments of encouragement, including yours, confirming my wish. Keep reading. Hashem be willing, I'll be around for awhile.

Rick Spurlock said...

In some early "Divine Invitation" blogs, there was a positive nod toward the so-called Noachide Laws. It was subsequently claimed DI does not promoting the Noachides. However DI, like MJ/BE seems to want desperately for the Noachide Laws to solve DI’s dilemma with regard to Gentiles. DI’s treatment of the Noachide Laws was one of the earliest tip to me that DI was on the slippery slope – long before the actually theology became public.

A clear-eyed investigation of the so-called Noachide Laws reveal that they are an invention of post-Mishnah Judaism. They are not enumerated until the Tosefta (Third Century CE).

On the other hand, when Acts 15:20 is compared to Ezekiel 33:25-26 it becomes clear that the minimalist list of applicable commandments for Gentiles are supersets of all the commandments.

James said...

Interesting, Rick. Sort of reminds me of Matthew 22:37-40 when Yeshua states the two greatest commandments and then says, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" which could be interpreted as saying the two greatest commandments are supersets of the Torah. If you're right, it would certainly give credence to the OL position.

I want to pause just momentarily from our debate. I've been recalling a line from the film "The Fugitive". Tommy Lee Jones delivers this dialogue to Harrison Ford, "I'm not trying to solve a puzzle, Richard".

I don't want to give the impression that all I'm doing here is "..trying to solve a puzzle." and I want to remind myself and everyone else that, regardless of our differences, what's important about our faith and our acting out of that faith, isn't complicated at all. It really is encompassed in the two greatest commandments and something I tried to say in a blog post called Nature.

Time to retire, do some reading and rest my spirit. Shalom.

Russ said...

For those of you who do not know either me or the basic tenants of the two house doctrine, I will leave this clarification for what it is worth:

Gene said, "Gentiles are not really "Gentiles," but are actually "lost" Israelites."

If he hadn't put my name to the statement I probably wouldn't have bothered, but here is the much anticipated rebuttal -

The nations are really the nations and not the "lost Israelites". The judgment given to the house of Israel (the ten northern tribes which split from Judah and Benjamin who stayed around Jerusalem) is that they would be carried off into the nations and become "Lo-Ammi", not my people. In other words, indistinguishable from the people of the nations where they landed and lived. It was also prophesied that at the set time in the last days they would be able again to recognize who they are and where they came from, and would once again be "the people of YHVH".

Mercy was given and received at the stake of Messiah, identity is coming back now, ministry with all the tribes comes later.

This teaching, in all of its many detailed scriptural references, absolutely rubs the MJ/BE crowd the wrong way. And I have to give Gene credit here, he is one of the few Jewish brothers to not try and dance around the whole issue, but rather comes right out and says what he thinks about it.

I can work with that.

But in clarifying the position as briefly as I have done here, I must also say that without the love of Messiah coming out through our hearts to others, none of truths concerning the two houses of Israel are worth even a sniffle.

Love does no harm to his neighbor, and if we are walking that way we are keeping the best part of Torah.

Ef

Dan Benzvi said...

EF,

Identity coming back now? What identity, time and again you have not beesn able to show any identity, but pipe dreams. Be/Mj are not the only one who think you are a meshugene, One Law are also with Gene's crowd on that.

Stop peddling this garbage and go back to study Scriptures.

James said...

Just a reminder, it is possible to disagree and still not be insulting. Now to continue.

Ef, maybe you can clear something up for me about two-house. I've always thought that two-house was saying that Gentiles who are attracted to the Torah are not Gentiles as such, but members of the lost tribes. True?

If so, then it means no Gentile (who isn't a member of the lost tribes) can be attracted to Torah for its own sake, which seems to defeat the whole idea of Israel being a light to the world. I've never thought of myself as a secret, hidden, or lost Jew. I'm pretty much a generic, Heinz 57 sauce, mutt Gentile.

Also, from what you said, this all presupposes we are in the "last days", which may or may not be true.

Russ said...

James,

Since you asked;

I believe that YHVH is drawing all people to Himself by His Spirit regardless of where their ancestors did business. While there may be descendants of the ten tribes mixed in among those who are being drawn to a Torah observant walk with Messiah, it is not exclusively made up of a specific brand of DNA.

As I have stated on my blog, the entrance requirements for the Kingdom of YHVH are the same for all people, the requirements for righteousness during the walk of faith is the same for all people, and the judgment at the end for all believers is based on the same criteria, Torah.

If someone happens to be descended from one of the tribes, yipeee, throw a party. But it is not, I repeat for those who have trouble reading, it is NOT a thread of exclusivity that runs through the rest of the children of YHVH.

But I also have to say that Efrayim, according to scripture, is quite humbled when he realizes just how lost he has been out there in the nations. Feeding the pigs as it were, quite hungry for the food at his Father's house.

Both the beliefs and attitudes of those who embrace the truth of the two houses have been very much maligned over the last 20 years without good cause. I really don't think that most of the outspoken critics even understand what scripture says or what it means as evidenced by comments such as Dan's and Gene's. But I will say that at least Gene gave me a place on his fellowship's website to discuss the matter publicly and with decency. Very few have done that recently.

As far as the last days, we entered those the day Messiah lifted up from the earth and returned to His Father. If you take the 1000 years is a day equation, it has been approximately two days, therefore properly called the "last days". I happen to believe that we are closer to the end of the those two days than we may be obliged to think, but as to just how close, I don't know.

Ef

Dan Benzvi said...

Thanks for the backpedaling EF. You are starting to talk sense. Now if you can drop your foolish demands for the Land...

You see,Gene is not a citizen of Israel, I am. anyone that even hints of taken the land away from me will feel my brunt....

Russ said...

The Land belongs to YHVH. Always has, always will. And He will have live there whoever He wants, whenever He wants and will remove them when and if He wants.

Should He decide to bring all of His people there at one time, again, that is His choice.

I am not backpedaling, I am simply explaining a small portion of what I believe in response to a question. As I indicated, there are many facets to the teaching of the two houses of Israel that do not get enough airtime, and so people who do not know scripture very well make assumptions based on their presuppositions and in their own interests.

Quite typical and anticipated.

Ef

Dan Benzvi said...

Yes the Land belong to Hashem, and He put us in there, not you....I wonder why?....According to Scriptures mind you.....

Russ said...

And He took you out of there, not me....I wonder why?....According to Scriptures mind you.....

James said...

The comments on this blog are getting dangerously close to being blocked. Check your attitudes at the door.

Russ said...

You're right James. I was trying to follow proverbs 26:4&5. It is such a fine line I sometimes land on the wrong side.

Back to the subject at hand.

James said...

Let's try a new conversation, shall we? I have two new blog posts that are in need of some company. Thanks.