Well that's certainly an interesting revelation, if true. Considering the commentor has chosen to be anonymous doesn't improve the likelihood that this statement is factual, but it doesn't mean these events aren't actually occurring, either. True or not, this information does bring up a topic that's been on my mind since I started this blog: authority.
Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul - men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. -Acts 15:22-29This is what is traditionally known as "the Jerusalem Letter" and is at the center of much discussion in the Messianic/One Law-One Torah/Two House community. I'm not writing this particular post to explore the meaning of the letter but rather, the Jerusalem Council's right to send it and expect that it be adhered to by the Gentile Messianic congregations in the diaspora. I mean, just because James and the gang in Jerusalem send out a letter, why should anyone listen to what he has to say?
In that place and at that time, the Gentile Messianics had a lot of reasons to take the letter from Jerusalem seriously. Jewish and Gentile faith in Yeshua as the Messiah had a single source: the Jewish disciples of Yeshua. James (Ya'akov, actually) was the half-brother of the Messiah (same Mom; different Dads) and despite the fact that Yeshua said that Peter would be the rock on which the "church" would be built, James was the Council's leader and chief authority.
Gentiles would have no idea what a "Messiah" even was without the Jewish disciples to inform them (with the possible exception of the Gentile God-fearers who had already been worshiping in synagogues for quite some time). There was only one central, Messianic authority structure in the mid to late 1st Century of the Common Era: the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. While there seemed to be some disagreements within "Messianic Judaism" such as between James and Paul and, as we see in Acts 15:36-41, between Paul and Silas, from a Gentile believer's point of view, "salvation comes from the Jews".
How times have changed.
Since the initial schism between Jewish and Gentile believers in the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE, "Christianity" has split more times than Microsoft stock back in the heyday of Bill Gates' creation. Right now, there are so many "Christianities", and for that matter, more than a few "Judaisms", that we can't point to a single authoritative source that presides over them all unless we consider God Himself and even then, each of these faith groups has a rather different take on God and who they are in relation to Him.
Let's get back to "blackballing". How does that work?
Hypothetical situation (which actually may be a real situation): Let's say that an organization of Jewish people is created by Jews who are Messianic. That is, these are Jews who have come to faith in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah. Further, these are people (I have to make a few assumptions here since I don't know any of them personally and their background information is hard to come by) who were raised in ethnically and religiously Jewish homes and who have a fully realized and lived Jewish experience from birth through adulthood. They really, really want to maintain that Jewish experience in their Messianic faith without turning into "Christians" and being relegated to the Gentile church, where they'd be required to give up "being Jewish".
What do to? This collection of Jewish people form a organization that has both educational and administrative branches and develop Messianic synagogues, modeled on an Orthodox Jewish framework, where Jews can be Jews, worship as Jews, live as Jews, and be Messianic. So far so good. However, there are a couple of problems.
The first problem is not all Messianic Jews worship or conceptualize their faith on a strict Orthodox Jewish model. While one of the foundational structures in strict Messianic Judaism is the concept of "boundaries" between Jewish and Gentile believers, the concept of "Fellow Heirs" held by other Jewish Messianics can make things really confusing. Some Messianic Jewish people are more accepting of Gentiles entering their sheep pen than others, so some Jews in some Messianic Jewish congregations aren't going to agree with the "strict" Messianic Jewish interpretation of scripture or of practice.
That brings us to the other problem: Gentiles. Frankly, if Yeshua hadn't muddied the waters at the end of the book of Matthew (particularly Matthew 28:19-20) by insisting that Gentiles also become Messianic disciples, strict Messianic Judaism would work out just fine as a faith group of Jewish people, by Jewish people, and for Jewish people. There would be no Gentile Messianics to "shake up the tree", so to speak.
However here we all are (more or less) together. Oh yeah, I was going to talk about "blackballing". How does that work?
Now that our hypothetical Messianic Jewish organization has been established (let's call it "SMJ" for "Strict Messianic Judaism"), congregations of Jews want to join. Usually, you only join or align yourself with an organization if you agree with their beliefs, goals, and purpose. If you bring yourself under the authority of SMJ, for example, you are agreeing with all of their tenets of faith, theology, bilateral ecclesiology, and saying you'll "play by their rules". Here's where you could justify blackballing.
Say a congregation that has previously put themselves under the authority of SMJ does something insane, like allowing Gentiles to be called up to read the Torah or even (gasp) putting a Gentile in a role of leadership (and let's say these are acts that are strictly against the rules established by SMJ). SMJ would be within their rights to go to said-congregation and tell them to knock it off. They would further be within their rights, if the congregation didn't "knock it off", to restrict, censure, or otherwise disciple the leaders of the congregation up to and including kicking them out of the SMJ organization. This is the short definition of the term blackball, or more formally:
1 : to vote against; especially : to exclude from membership by casting a negative voteThus, if the errant congregation continued to refuse to come into line with the practices and beliefs of SMJ, SMJ removes them from their organization and perhaps even "spreads the word" that this particular congregation is no longer part of the group or even, is no longer a valid Messianic congregation.
2 a: to exclude socially : ostracize
b : boycott
The problem for our hypothetical SMJ is that they can only exercise authority over those congregations who have voluntarily joined the SMJ ranks, paid a fee, and agreed to comply with SMJ practices. Consider how many Messianic Jewish/One Law-One Torah/Two House congregations, home fellowships, loose associations, and family gatherings that exist out there. SMJ may disagree with those groups and even periodically engage them in debates in the Messianic blogosphere, but they can't actually make an impact on them in any authoritative manner.
Unlike James and the Jerusalem Council, there currently is no single authoritative source for Messianic and Christian worship and practice, thus SMJ cannot impose their will on any non-aligned group. It would be like the President of the hypothetical SMJ organization walking into a Baptist church on Sunday morning during services and delivering a written manifesto to which the church would be expected to adhere. After all, "salvation comes from the Jews" so why shouldn't SMJ, representing the Jewish source of Messianic salvation, expect that any group or organization who professes faith in Yeshua/Jesus come under SMJ authority?
Because SMJ isn't the sole source of authority. The Gentile Baptist church has their own authoritative organization. Remember the schism and all the various and sundry splits and schisms that have occurred in the faith over the past 2000 years or so? Lots and lots of authorities have been created over these many different faith groups.
No one has actually said so, but I suspect that in the back of the minds of at least some folks in the Messianic movement, they imagine that, if not now, at some future date, they will be in a position of authority to drive the practices of all of the congregations, churches, and groups who profess Yeshua or Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Messiah. Imagine believing that and then continuing to encounter Jews and Gentiles who are "Messianic" yet who keep on disagreeing with you and who keep on engaging in practices with which you find completely problematic. How would that make you feel?
Think about it.
Do I care what is or isn't said or done in a Baptist church, in a Lutheran church, in an Orthodox Synagogue, or in a Messianic Jewish (a la SMJ) Synagogue? No, not particularly. We may disagree on some issues and we may have different religious practices, but I have absolutely no say in what those other groups think or do. I have no authority over them nor do I want any authority over them. Yet, assuming there is some sort of "SMJ" group out there practicing "blackballing" on other groups who have not come under SMJ authority, why would they care what other non-aligned groups do, and even if they do care, what can they do about it (at least that's morally, ethically, and Biblically valid)?
Of course, I have not one shred of evidence to establish that the comments registered by "Anonymous" are at all true, so this may be a moot point. There is no one, central authority for Christianity or Messianism in the world today. Groups can establish an authority over congregations who agree to come under that authority, but that's the extent of their influence. They can attempt to persuade others, publish papers, write blog posts, author books, create podcasts, but we on the other side of the wall (so to speak) can choose to agree or disagree. When the Messiah returns, he will establish the authority. Until then, we can acknowledge, at least in theory, that we are one flock listening to one shepherd, but in fact, there are a lot of "sub-shepherds" running a lot of different sheep pens, with each pen, apparently, jockeying for position.
One final note, lest you think I'm trying to start a war. I really don't think things are as dire as the picture I've just painted. In order for my increasingly hypothetical "SMJ" organization to behave in the way I've described. they would have to be more interested in establishing and maintaining power and authority over human beings for their own sake and "glory" than they would be in establishing and maintaining the glory of God and the righteousness of Yeshua over the Earth. If different people and organizations disagree, it doesn't mean they're "power hungry" or want to "lord it over" other people. After all, how can any organization who calls themselves "Messianic" ignore the fact that the Messiah's metaphor for leadership was acted out when he washed the feet of his own disciples (John 13:1-17) and that anyone who wants to be first should make themselves last?
50 comments:
Hey James,
Regarding the comment about the Denver-area Messianic leader who was forced to resign for not being Jewish, I know the guy who made that comment, have met him several times and talk with him pretty regularly. He's not one to make stuff up.
By the way, can you twitter direct me your email address? I somehow have lost it, and GMail search is fruitless.
Here's the audio related to the non-Jewish Messianic Jewish leader that supports the allegation:
http://www.graftedin.com/torahtalk/100401.mp3
I speculate the following partially explains why there is a push to have leaders in MJ congregations be Jewish:
http://www.graftedin.com/torahtalk/100728.mp3
http://www.graftedin.com/torahtalk/100804.mp3
Guys, why try to force yourself on others? If you don't agree with a particular organization's doctrinal or authority positions - leave. If you don't like the theology of a particular group - don't join and certainly don't try to kick the door open. Simple as that. Don't think that just because you go by moniker "messianic" we all have to get along - perhaps the best thing to show love would be to let each other do what they think is best.
After all, how many of you would let me, with my particular theological and practical views, become a leader who makes binding decisions in your organizations or congregation, or especially one who can influence your members to my point of view?
@Judah: Check your twitter DMs.
@Anonymous: I'm at work now and can't listen to the mp3s now. Will try to do so tonight (and hopefully they're not super long).
@Gene: That's my point. I probably wouldn't put my congregation under the authority of my hypothetical "SMJ" organization because our viewpoints and goals would likely clash. On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't go to someone else's congregation with the expectation that they'd have to comply with any of my ideas or thoughts, either.
@All: If a Messianic organization is going to a congregation with which they are not affiliated and telling the Gentile leadership to step down and to promote a Jewish person instead, why in the world would that congregation have to comply with the request? It would be...bizarre.
Gene,
Look who is talking....
We are not the one who form a "Jewish organization," Invited Gentiles in, and than cry and whine because there is no Jews around.....
MJ UMJC style should have a motto: WE WANT TO HAVE THE CAKE AND EAT IT TOO....
There's one more link in the set of two recordings:
http://www.graftedin.com/torahtalk/100811.mp3
The title of the three-part series is, "So You Want To Be Jewish?"
Dan, since you are not part of the UMJC and contribute nothing (but criticism and disdain) to that organization, I guess you don't have a say in what they choose to do with the people under their care (who are all there voluntarily). Even if they one day chose to kick every single One-Law adherent out from their midst - what is it to you? More for you to join your cause!:) Go pick on Anglicans, or something.
Gene,
Hah....But the street is not a one way street, you know? This is why i can continue to tell you again and again: Go fly a kite......Because my house is a house of prayer to all nations...Shall we teach you guys how to read?
"my house is a house of prayer to all nations."
UMJC is not the Temple in Jerusalem, Dan, just as Israel is not a place where everyone on earth should move to, but a homeland for Jewish people. Instead, UMJC is an organization created to support synagogues and spiritual needs of Jewish followers of Yeshua, specifically. At least that's what it should have been and hopefully one day will become.
Gene,
Liked you qualifier in the last sentence...LOL!
First thought: Dan, don't you have a Rosh Hashanah demonstration for Mormons to prepare for?
Revised thought: Dan, have a wonderful day, brother!
I'm still trying to figure out how the non-Jewish congregational leader could have been forced out of his position by a Messianic Jewish organization if the congregation hadn't agreed to be under the MJ organization's authority. It would be like Gene (no offense..I know you've never do this) coming into my congregation and throwing me off the board and firing me from teaching. Like, why would we comply?
James: The leader was told he should resign but he didn't. Just listen to the first MP3 and what happened will be clear.
Hey, Gene,
It is all relative, at least I don't have to shoo out the gotim in my congregation.......
@Anonymous: Since anyone using those mp3 links can discover the name of the congregational leader and his congregation, we might as well just say that all this happened to Mark McLellan at The Harvest congregation.
I listened to the first mp3 in full and to portions of the other three, which seemed to be a three-part study of whether or not Gentiles converting specifically to Messianic Judaism is necessary to gain God's love (no, it isn't). I personally am not a big fan of Gentiles converting to Messanic Judaism for more reasons than I can state in this venue, so not much of what McLellan said was new to me.
From what I could get listening to the first recording, one Messianic leader (I assume he was Jewish) approached McLellan representing two other Messianic Jewish leaders and asked him to step down as the leader of his congregation based on the fact that McLellan himself isn't Jewish.
In listening to the recordings and reviewing the website of The Harvest, McLellan's congregation would best be described as One Law-One Torah, so unless he had previously put himself and his group under the authority of the Messianic leaders who made this demand of him, I can't see any reason why McLellan would have to listen to them. If he had put himself under their authority previously, he should have made a break with them at the time he decided to move in a different direction, but that's between McLellan and the Messianic parent group.
As I see it, the whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense. If some person walked into my congregation out of a clear blue sky, told me he was a Messianic Jew and demanded that I step down as a teacher because I wasn't Jewish, I really doubt I and the rest of the board would take him very seriously.
To be clear, I have recently brought up these issues and more to my board to re-affirm the suitability of me continuing in my current role since I most certainly am under their authority. Your board of directors is always the first authority you go to (on a human level) in such matters since the leadership committee as a whole, and not any one individual, is responsible for guiding the congregation.
I don't want to start another "he said/she said" debate in the comments section here since I'm only learning about this second hand and wasn't a direct witness, but I'll repeat again that the scope of authority of any organization in the Messianic realm is limited to those individuals or groups who have agreed to accept the authority of the parent group and to abide by the parent group's rules and conditions.
Assuming McLellan and his congregation are self-contained and are non-affiliated with a parent organization, they have the right to govern themselves and to appoint their own leaders and teachers.
The whole thing sounds quite contrived to me. Why in the world would anyone want to come in into a Gentile One-Law congregation to oust their Gentile leader?
Gene: By what I heard the movement for the MJ leader to resign was external to the MJ leader's congregation.
I get the distinct impression that the comments here are addressing an underlying text, agenda, or intent that I can't quite put my finger on.
Anonymous, while the initial mp3 recording of McLellan's did discuss, at least somewhat, the incident of being asked to step down by an outside group, the other three recordings were exclusively on the issue of Gentiles converting to Messianic Judaism as one might convert to Orthodox Judaism, for example. As I recall, the issue of Israel's being "uniquely chosen" was also presented. Yet those topics don't have a direct connection with what we are discussing here or your original comments on Judah's blog.
If you're interested in the conversion and "being chosen" issues, Dan Benzvi covered them in a series of posts on his blog quite recently. Here are the links:
On the subject of conversion
On the subject of "unique calling"
And a convert shall lead them
I'm not sure what's going on "out there", but while I don't mind discussing controversial topics, I don't blog simply for the sake of stirring up arguements. I'm looking for solutions and for connections, not a "holy war". We don't all have to hold hands and agree all the time (and I'm not sure that's possible with such an emotionally charged topic as faith and "identity"), but we all worship one God and one Messiah. The sheep may argue, but I suspect the shepherd is not amused.
James: I know and understand the difference between the first and the last three recordings. I believe there is something underlying both that is in common. The common thread is exclusivity. In the case of congregational leadership, one must be Jewish in order to be the leader of a MJish congregation. In the case of the, "So you want to be Jewish?" doing a conversion makes one be part of the 'chosen people.' I believe the speaker does a good job in addressing both subjects.
Taking this back to the main point, there is something going on out there where a congregation leader was told he should resign since he wasn't Jewish. You have the proof in audio form.
I do not know if The Harvest was ever affiliated with any umbrella organization. I will try to find out.
Gene: You think this is contrived?! You did listen to the audio, didn't you? Are you saying Mark McLellan is saying something that is untrue or is spinning the facts?
"In the case of congregational leadership, one must be Jewish in order to be the leader of a MJish congregation."
Why is this so hard for you to accept that Jews (and anyone else for that matter) have the right to decide what goes on in their OWN congregations, in their OWN communities, and in their OWN lives? Is it a matter of pride that you must demand some sort of treatment? Do you want affirmative action for Gentiles? You don't like what some other congregation does? Don't go there! I myself don't care to attend One-Law congregations nor do you see me demanding that they have Jewish leadership (99.99999% of them do not). Let them do as they please - as long as they don't come and interfere with me and people under my care, they can do whatever they want. Take care of your own community and mind your own business.
"Gene: You think this is contrived?! You did listen to the audio, didn't you? Are you saying Mark McLellan is saying something that is untrue or is spinning the facts?"
I have no idea and frankly I don't care. We still don't have the voice of the second party, therefore we are missing at least half of the details. The whole thing makes zero sense. Why would MJ leaders care what One-Law congregation does with his own congregation? I don't know of anyone who would. I would like hear the voice of those "MJ leaders" before putting them on trial.
@Gene: The issue, at least for me, is whether or not a Gentile has the right to create a congregation made up of One Law folks and then lead it, not that a One Law Gentile should demand to lead a Messianic Jewish congregation. I didn't hear anything on McLellan's recording that suggested he wanted to go into someone else's congregation and demand to lead it, just that he wanted to keep leading his own One Law group.
@Anonymous: Gene is right in that we only have one side of the transaction without any corroborating data. I can't accuse McLellan or anyone else of lying because I wasn't there, but the recording isn't obvious "proof" that the event occurred as described. It's only one side of the story. As an objective observer I can't draw a conclusion on what did or didn't happen based on the recording alone.
I'm not trying to be offensive or insulting but, from an objective outsider's point of view with no personal connection with the individuals or congregations involved, all I can see if McLellan's side of the story.
As far as "exclusivity" goes, the matter has been debated and will continue to be debated within the MJ/OL-OT/TH realm, probably until the Messiah returns. As you can likely tell by reading many of my blog posts, the roles and boundaries that do or do not exist among Jewish and Gentile Messianics is a topic I continually explore. I'm launching into a fresh series of posts on what Yeshua commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 starting with What Did Jesus Teach About Gentiles. If you're interested in following this investigation, please do so. At some point through, it would be nice to call you by name, unless you have a compelling reason to remain anonymous.
James: Let me get this right. If I tell you an airplane flew over my house you would need to interview the pilot to corroborate my testimony? Perhaps you would need the testimony of another witness who saw the same event, yes? If I can't find a corroborating witness but I keep telling you I'm seeing airplanes flying over my house is it reasonable to discount my testimony due to lack of corroboration? In life we don't always have the luxury of obtaining corroboration. Then one needs to reflect on the character of the one providing the testimony. What would life be like if you distrusted everything people said when it was uncorroborated? In this case I will see what I can do about finding corroboration. At least my testimony is corroborated by the recording.
"Then one needs to reflect on the character of the one providing the testimony."
OK, let's see. Most folks outside of your circle do not know this McLellan fella from the hole in the ground (I certainly don't - James, how well do you know this man?). How are we suppose to reflect on his character or especially on your character as the messenger, Anonymous?
Please notice who is President of the Messianic Alliance of Metro Atlanta:
http://www.mama-ga.com/who_we_are.htm
To extend the metaphor, courts of law usually don't have anonymous witnesses, but let's put that aside.
There's a huge difference between you saying you flew over your house in an airplane, which has little if any emotional, moral, legal, or ethical impact on most folks and saying, a Messianic Jewish leader entered Mark McLellan's congregation and told him point blank to step down as a leader because McLellan isn't Jewish.
But let's assume for the moment that everything about McLellan's statement is absolutely true. I've already responded to that part by saying if it is so, then the person or persons who made such a demand were way out of line. They have no authority to make such a demand and McLellan was well within his rights to ignore the demand and to continue leading his own congregation.
Where do we go from here?
James: Where is the anonymous witness here? Let's not put that aside.
My comment about the airplane is about how people process information. Let the evidence be your guide, not passion. It's like you're saying extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No. I never said someone entered Mark McLellan's congregation... Is that what Mark said on the recording? Shucks, I thought I was going be able to avoid getting a court reporter to transcribe what Mark said! I hope people will believe me if I go back and transcribe what was said... It appears I must! Please quote what Mark said if it wouldn't be too much trouble, or at least say where in the recording what you're saying appears. I thought Mark was being told he needed to resign by one or more local MJ leaders. I'll try to give the recoding another listen.
The most legitimate way I can think of that makes everything okay is that an umbrella organization said Mark should resign and Mark said no. There are ramifications but that's just life and relationships between organizations are made and broken every day. The frustration in Mark's voice makes me think what was happening was not this kind of situation.
All: Anybody want to take another listen and come up with the exact verbiage that describes who told Mark he should resign?
If McLellan was not under an umbrella that asked him to resign (because he violated some previously agreed to terms - and for mainstream MJs, teaching One-Law would qualify as such), it would be like the Pope calling up some Baptist church asking the pastor to resign because he's not a Catholic. Absurdity.
In http://www.graftedin.com/torahtalk/100401.mp3 please note the following passages.
At 4:33 Mark McLellan says:
"This week I was informed by a Messianic Jewish pastor in our city that two other very well known Messianic Jewish pastors in this city were stating that I should not be leading a Messianic congregation because I am not Jewish."
At 16:01 Mark McLellan says:
"On what basis are you going to boycott me? On what basis are you going to judge me? On what basis do you think you are going to remove me from my pastorate in this great city that God Himself has called me to lead? On what basis do you think you are going the censure me? You see I rebuke you in the name of the Law! And I rebuke you in the name of the Gospel! I charge you with raising up the wall of division though spiritual racism! And I charge you with boasting in your fleshly ethnic status rather your covenant status in Messiah! And I charge you with suppressing and oppressing the Gentiles whom Yeshua died for in order to bring into fellowship with you, His Jewish people. To those Messianic leaders in our city who are guilty of these charges I cry out: You let my people in! How's that for a Pesach message? You let my people in! May your Messianic Pesachs be less than blessed until you learn to treat the Gentiles with respect and digity, they too deserve some respect and dignity!"
At 22:16 Mark McLennan says:
"I'm here to stay and you're not going to remove me, so quit trying."
@Anonymous: I'm apparently not responding in the way that you want. I've already said that I agree, no one has the right to enter Mark McLellan's congregation and demand he step down based on his not being Jewish. Even Gene has said this. It would be a crazy expectation for any Messianic leader (or anyone else) to drop in on a congregation and expect that the congregation's leader respond to requests or demands "just because".
That said, I'm not sure what else I can say or do under the circumstances.
James: You said:
"I've already said that I agree, no one has the right to enter Mark McLellan's congregation and demand he step down based on his not being Jewish."
So as to not spread confusion on what happened, Mark McLellan just said he was informed by a local MJ pastor about two other MJ pastors who said Mr. McLellan should not be leading a MJ congregation. It is unclear how the message was delivered, just that he was "informed." Let's not say someone entered the congregation though I agree that would be outrageous.
Also, I think we are in agreement that if The Harvest broke some agreement that precipitated the suggestion that Mr. McLellan resign then that's the only way this situation could be explained. I somehow doubt this is the case.
All: Do we know of any MJ umbrella organization that is making a demand that its affiliated congregational leaders be Jewish?
"Do we know of any MJ umbrella organization that is making a demand that its affiliated congregational leaders be Jewish?"
IAMCS (MJAA's congregational arm) has this requirement. UMJC should have this requirement (they do not, and this was one of the things that I've been in disagreement with them), but it seems to be heading in this direction. At the same time, UMJC requires that a congregation must have at least 10 Jewish members on their roll - which would pretty much exclude most One-Law places and their leaders (whoever they are).
I guess In Gene's circles and congregation they require attendeis to take down their pants to check if they are Jewish....
I wonder if Paul did the same when he started his congregations....
I guess In Gene's circles and congregation they require attendeis to take down their pants to check if they are Jewish....
That wouldn't work with women, of course, Dan. ;-)
Gene, everything you said about these requirements for Jewish leadership and Jewish membership would only be for congregations that desired to belong to the organizations you reference. For the rest of us, Gentiles who desire to understand and obey Yeshua within a Hebraic context (which doesn't necessarily mean a Jewish context), it's a moot point.
Oh, don't forget to read my latest What Did Jesus Teach blog post. I'm hoping each post will add a piece to the puzzle and eventually reveal a picture of what commandments the Jewish Messiah really wants Gentile believers to obey.
Gene: Thank you for letting me know about IAMCS. I have a query out to them for the exact text as confirmation.
Do you think the UMJC leadership would be upset if any of its UMJC-affiliated congregational leaders called for the resignation of any congregational leaders (whether UMJC-affiliated or not) if they were not Jewish?
All: I thought the MJAA had the requirement that someone who is a congregational leader can only be called 'rabbi' when they are Jewish; otherwise, as a non-Jew they called 'pastor'. Is the UMJC the same way?
James: Someplace I made reference to a preponderance of evidence and you picked up on that and related that to court. I can't find the comment and I'm too limited on time to go find it. Presuming you were the one who made the comment, isn't it also the case that police and prosecutors also think in terms of the same thing in preparation to go to court? I've found that it's rare that insiders who really know what's going on will drop the complete story right in your lap. When I hear of or see bizarre stuff happening those things beg for an explanation, so that's when I shift into investigation mode and start looking for patterns and start hypothesizing. This thing in Denver we've been discussing is a fuzzy dot on the graph paper. Let's see if it becomes a solid dot and then how many more solid dots are out there. Perhaps then a line can be drawn between the dots. Perhaps the dots will stay fuzzy and then it'll be necessary to get even more data to find a pattern and fit a line to it. We'll see...
"I guess In Gene's circles and congregation they require attendeis to take down their pants to check if they are Jewish...."
No need for that. Common sense and a few questions about a person family background does the trick. From my experience it's quite easy to weed out those who LIE about being Jewish and whose Jewish identity is imaginary or contrived.
"I wonder if Paul did the same when he started his congregations...."
He started Gentile congregations (churches, in today's vernacular), not synagogues - Paul/Shaul was an apostle to the Gentiles. I am also sure Shaul was not confused about who was a Jew and who was not. Also, since he affirmed over and over that he violated neither Torah nor traditions of the fathers, we can be assured that he had a clear understanding of any limitations of Gentile participation in the Mosaic covenantal obligations and their role in synagogue life (for those believers among G-d fearers and already part of synagogues, not those who came directly from pagan Gentile and for whom participation in synagogue life would be irrelevant).
Yes Anonymous, I am looking at this, at least somewhat, from a "court" point of view. On the Internet, we tend to "try" people and organizations in a venue where we are absolutely detached from events because they're presented in a virtual environment.
I previously said: I'm apparently not responding in the way that you want. I've already said that I agree, no one has the right to enter Mark McLellan's congregation and demand he step down based on his not being Jewish. Even Gene has said this. It would be a crazy expectation for any Messianic leader (or anyone else) to drop in on a congregation and expect that the congregation's leader respond to requests or demands "just because".
I had thought what you were looking for is some agreement that it was wrong for a Messianic Jewish leader to ask McLellan to give up the leadership position in his own OL congregation just because McLellan wasn't Jewish. I agreed. I'm not sure where you want to go from here.
Gene, you still keep talking like I'm going to "party crash" your congregation or Derek's congregation or something. I promise, I won't. I certainly wouldn't lie about being Jewish. Why would I? I've written a ton of blog posts that, taken all together, illustrate that I don't have to be Jewish to have a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm sorry if other (Gentile) people believe they have to convert or something. It isn't necessary.
"Gene, you still keep talking like I'm going to "party crash" your congregation or Derek's congregation or something. "
James, I wasn't addressing folks like you, rather those who WOULD ram down the doors of someone's congregations or heritage. In fact, I think you would fit quite well within a Messianic JEWISH setting.
Gene is of course right about Paul...How silly of me to think 1 Cor. 7:19 is correct. Derek knew better and converted, so you want have to interogate him about him being a Jew or a goy....Can Derek make aliah in your congregation? after all to Judaism he is a goy, no?
Anonymous said:
"Do we know of any MJ umbrella organization that is making a demand that its affiliated congregational leaders be Jewish?"
Gene said:
"IAMCS (MJAA's congregational arm) has this requirement."
From the IAMCS Membership Requirements document (Membership Requirements.doc):
[6] Jewishness of the congregation – either the leader is Jewish and/or there must be members of the congregation who are Jewish to be considered a Messianic Congregation.
In my opinion the above statement doesn't rise to the level of a demand that the congregational leader be Jewish.
James said:
"I'm sorry if other (Gentile) people believe they have to convert or something. It isn't necessary."
Amen and Amein!
I have now spoken *directly* to Pastor Mark McLellan. He said three Messianic Jewish congregational leaders in the Denver area met and two out of three of them said that he should not lead a MJ congregation since he was not Jewish. All three of those leaders are Jewish. One of them, I presume the one who didn't side with the other two, called Pastor McLellan.
Judah: To be clear -- Pastor McLellan was never forced to resign. Pastor Mark just didn't accept the two gentlemen's suggestion! 8-)
The Jewish gentlemen in question must have flipped their tops if they thought they could walk into someone else's congregation and just tell the leader to quit because the guy's not Jewish.
Also, they obviously didn't do much research about McLellan's congregation, since it seems to fall more under the classification of One Law-One Torah. It was my understanding that strict Messianic Judaism realized that OL-OT congregations were more Gentile focused. With that understanding, why would the Jewish individuals involved even care?
They apparently need a few more activities in their lives if they can spare so much time to pursue such a fruitless course of action.
James: I feel like I've said this before... Nobody walked into Mark McLellan's congregation. The communication was either by phone or e-mail.
At this point I do not know the names of the three Jewish gentlemen, the names of their congregations, nor the affiliations of the respective congregations. Therefore, without know the affiliations one is left to only speculate what was their motivation.
Mark said he was willing to let things stand as they were, letting his Torah Talk audio speak for his position. My concern in this all is that this is a symptom of a larger issue.
I agree on their having too much free time on their hands!
"My concern in this all is that this is a symptom of a larger issue."
If a Gentile claims to lead a "Jewish" congregation and doesn't care what Jews think about this idea, that's THE symptom of a larger issue.
However, if he's merely leading a "One-Law" place, a Hebrew Roots church that think they are Israelites, a Two-House congregation, etc. - that's ALSO a symptom of a larger problem, but Jews should not bother themselves with what someone is doing in those places, leave them alone, and instead consider those folks as any other religious denominations out there and let them be.
Gene: You said it just right:
'If a Gentile claims to lead a "Jewish" congregation and doesn't care what Jews think about this idea, that's THE symptom of a larger issue.'
Notice the quotes around "Jewish". I don't think the ethic ownership of the term "Messianic Jewish" or the movement by Judaism has been established. Judaism as a whole rejects Messianic Judaism, doesn't it?! Perhaps some within the MJ movement think they can capture the term and the movement and then force Judaism as a whole to accept it, yes?
I think Mark McLellan hits the nail on the head when he talks about folks' desire to convert. In the same way I think it is unnecessary to make "Messianic Judaism" be a Judaism. The effort to my MJ a Judiasm just creates bad fruit.
Gene: You said:
"However, if he's merely leading a "One-Law" place, a Hebrew Roots church that think they are Israelites, a Two-House congregation, etc. - that's ALSO a symptom of a larger problem, but Jews should not bother themselves with what someone is doing in those places, leave them alone, and instead consider those folks as any other religious denominations out there and let them be."
Why did "Divine Invitation" or "Bilateral Ecclesiology" come one the MJ scene? Are they just techniques to create a "Membership has its privileges" stratification in the MJ movement so there'll be a market for MJ conversion, so with a MJ conversion one will have full privileges in a MJ congregation and lots of educational material will be sold along the way?
Why don't folks just leave the Two House and One Law folks alone? What is this bigger problem, really?
Gene, what wrong are you trying to right here by showing concern about the TH and OL folks and a bigger problem? Please educate me!
You will know them by their fruit. What is their (the TH and OL) fruit? What is the fruit of those who oppose those who have TH or OL positions?
I suspect the real intent behind the direction of this conversation has been to indict a large portion of the Messianic Jewish movement based on the actions of three men in the Denver area who targeted one Gentile Pastor of a single One Law congregation.
As most of the people reading my blog know, I've "banged aheads" against some of the Bilateral Eccelesiology proponants from time to time and in those transactions, I've discovered that said-proponents are just as human as anyone else. That is, some of them are people of good intent who are pursuing a course they truly believe is correct. Others, it seems, are driven more by their personal issues and need to establish significance and even in a few cases, superiority, over other (namely Gentiles) members of the movement. However, to say that the entire Jewish population of MJ is unethical or only out for personal or corporate gain is a gross exaggeration.
All we have is a single incident where a paper tiger possessing no teeth attempted to get a Gentile person to remove himself from the leadership of a congregation because they believe all groups that label themselves "Messianic Judaism" should be run by Jews.
We've already acknowledged that the three men in question were in error and possessed no authority to make demands of an unaffiliated congregation. What we're missing in this conversation is an attempt to look at the larger picture and find ways to build bridges between the Gentile and Jewish adherents of the MJ/Hebraic movement rather than trying to burn them. Of course, the door swings both ways in that BI/MJ also needs to generate more focus on bridge building than in wall building. So far, my understanding of the Bible is that Jews and Gentiles are supposed to worship God together. Roles may be different, but faith is the common blood we all share.
We need to stop trying to cut the veins that give all of us life in Yeshua.
"So far, my understanding of the Bible is that Jews and Gentiles are supposed to worship God together."
In spirit since we are part of one Body - yes, but not in religious practice and certainly not in physical proximity. It's the same thing as saying that Japanese believers MUST worship with Portuguese believers - but I am yet to hear anyone suggest that! This ignores the fact that there are languages differences, cultural differences, different approaches to faith, different theologies (a big one, isn't it?), different customs, not to mention that both groups rarely physically intersect each other because they are part of different communities (living on different continents). How much more so for those Jews who are followers of Yeshua who actually practice Judaism and traditions of their ancestors, live in Jewish communities in Diaspora or especially in Israel. Already, the majority of world's Jewry lives in Israel, with more to follow, a place where Gentiles are a distinct minority.
The population of the world is a little under 7 billion people. Of these, about 0.2% (two tenths of one percent) are Jewish. So if we were to divide all Jews equally among all the hypothetical congregations around the world, we'd have the same percentage of Jews in each one. This would hardly create a picture of unity. Perhaps there's another way to show unity than to mix all of us up?
Gene, you focused in on the one sentence in my response that bugged you, but you didn't seem to read on:
Roles may be different, but faith is the common blood we all share. We need to stop trying to cut the veins that give all of us life in Yeshua.
I didn't mean that we bus a bunch of Gentiles across town and force you to accept them (us, me) in your synagogue (or in Derek's synagogue or in Rabbi Joshua's synagogue). The intent of my statement, in the current context, is to encourage all of us in the Messianic blogosphere to stop "gunning" for one another based on Gentile vs. Jew and to look for ways to build bridges between our various (and if need be, separate) communities. I'm talking about behaving towards each other as if we worshiped the same Messiah and the same God. We don't act that way very much right now.
It's the same thing as saying that Japanese believers MUST worship with Portuguese believers - but I am yet to hear anyone suggest that!
Are you saying that if a Japanese Christian were to visit Portugal on vacation and wanted to worship at a Portugese church on Sunday, he or she should be forbidden because of their country of origin, nationality, ethnicity, and native language? No, I don't think you're really saying that, but it could be implied based on your statement.
Why is it that my congregation can welcome people from Mexico, Russia, France, and other countries into worship of the Messiah with us, regardless if some are Gentile and regardless if some are Jewish? If they wanted to join us, they could join us. If they only wanted to visit occasionally, that's OK, too. This is not a threat to our integrity or continuity as a congregation, this is fellowship.
We have a sister congregation that was considering joining ours but decided to maintain their separateness based on their servicing a primarily Spanish-speaking population. This is voluntary and understandable but it's not forbidden for any one of us to worship with them and it's not forbidden for any one of them to worship with us. That congregation does join with us for worship on special holidays and we have Mexican families that choose to worship with us rather than the other congregation. This is a matter of choice, not a mandate from God. Segregated congregations exist by conscious decision and to some degree convenience, just as do mixed congregations, and I've already established that there were many mixed congregations in the day of Paul (see You Who are With Us Today).
Your argument is based on the modern day struggles of Jews who are trying to establish and maintain a Jewish identity within a Messianic Jewish (Christian) framework. This is unique compared to the environment of the 1st century believers, since Messianic faith was a primarily Jewish faith at that time, and Gentiles were only beginning to be accepted, sometimes grudgingly, into the worship of the One God.
I'm not trying to physically fuse different populations by force. If you've been reading my blog posts for any period of time, you know my intent. I'm only saying that, from God's point of view, we are all nourished by the blood of Yeshua. For the sake of his sacrifice and death, we should all at least try to treat each other with respect, and not like Gentiles or Jews are some kind of infection to each other.
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