I have questions. I created this blog because I have questions. I usually blog representing my congregation but it's not fair or right for me to use the umbrella of my congregation's name when I'm expressing my personal options and conducting an individual search of my faith. I try to encourage everyone of faith to question their assumptions, but it's a rare thing for people to actually do so. Here, I plan to live out my own words and question my assumptions about God, Yeshua/Jesus, the Bible, and who I am as a Gentile in relationship to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
What started all this? I'm glad you asked.
Not too long ago, I wrote an article for my congregation's blog called Does God Love Gentiles Too?. It was part of a series of articles I'd been writing in response to the viewpoint of some Messianic Jewish organizations, principally the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute, that the name, theological constructs, worship style, and embodiment of that entity we call "Messianic Judaism" is wholly owned and operated by Jewish people who believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. From that perspective, Messianic Judaism is a Judaism in the same sense as Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism and is not generally open to more than the occasional Gentile...period.
Before I continue, keep in mind that I don't word my articles quite so strongly on my congregation's blog, but these are my personal thoughts. I and I alone am responsible for the content presented here and my opinions cannot be attributed or assigned to any other person or entity.
If that had been the end of it, maybe a few dozen people would have viewed the article and less than 5 would have commented and we all would have moved on. However, occasionally, the content from my congregation's blog is picked up and published by Judah Himango, a Messianic Jewish blogger who maintains Kineti L'Tziyon, a blog site which aggregates content from other Messianic blogs and websites across the Internet. This past week, Judah included a link to Does God Love Gentiles Too? on his Weekly Bracha.
Then the comments about my blog article began...and continued. Here's a sample, keeping in mind they're taken out of context. You can click the link I just posted to see everything in its original context.
You ignore the fact that Messianic Judaism was started as a movement for Jewish people to express life and faith in Yeshua. Those who are not Jewish and who wish to be part of Messianic Judaism should be here for a Jewish movement to come alongside, not to say, "Hey, Messianic Judaism belongs to us now, so move over Jews.
I wish you would either rejoice in your non-Jewish identity and find your place in the church or realize that your participation in MJ (assuming your congregation is actually Jewish, which I do not think is a given) is about supporting God's work amongst the people of Israel.I haven't used "Messianic Judaism" to refer to me or my congregation for quite some time, basically because I don't think we're a "Judaism" as such. However, I thought that the "Messianic Movement" (for lack of a better term) contained the natural and grafted in branches to the root and that there was fellowship between Jews and Gentiles as partners and brothers within that content. I was told I was wrong.
But Messianic is the name we have used for our movement. It is a name which communicates Messianic Jewish to the world. If One Law groups were to use a different name, that would solve a lot of the problem. But, in my (admittedly limited) experience, One Law groups talk the talk of being a possible home for Jewish followers of Yeshua (even when they have no Jewish members or leaders). I'm not sure most One Law groups would want to give up the illusion of being Messianic Jewish.I long ago gave up the notion that congregations such as mine had a primary purpose of "converting" rabbinic Jewish people into faith in Messiah Yeshua. As I saw our mission changing and watched who was walking through our doors, it seemed more likely that our primary purpose was to educate Gentile believers into the Jewishness of Jesus and the Bible, opening up the rich tapestry of the Torah to fresh eyes. I felt that Gentiles could be "Messianic", though the meaning for us might not have the same context as for Jewish people, but then I was told that was wrong, again.
James, is not your wife Jewish? If so, I would say that you have a legitimate reason to be part of a Messianic congregation - for your wife's sake. Otherwise, yes - I would say that a Sunday (or Monday, Tuesday, Wed..) keeping church would be a perfectly acceptable and even a preferable choice for you and most Gentile followers of the Messiah.That statement came as quite a shock. The only valid reason the writer of that comment felt I had for being in a Messianic group was that I had a Jewish wife. It was like having a visitor's pass to an otherwise exclusive club of which I had no personal right to belong.
OK, to be fair, not all that many Gentiles regularly attend and are full members of Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox Jewish synagogues since that faith and worship identity are uniquely Jewish. Most Gentiles have no real context for fitting into those groups. Non-Jewish people who regularly attend Jewish synagogues do so because (wait for it) they are married to a Jew.
MJTI might be right to not expect a lot of Gentiles who they consider Christian but not Messianic, to be hanging around their synagogues and their congregants. But from the viewpoint of the Apostolic Scriptures, that didn't make sense.
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! -Romans 11:13-24If the Gentiles are grafted into the same root as the Jewish believers, and the MJTI viewpoint is supposed to be correct, what are we doing on the same tree? According to the last commenter, Gentile believers are supposed to be going to a Sunday church and Jewish believers are supposed to be going to a Sabbath-keeping Messianic Synagogue. What happened?
Most Gentiles I know in the "Messianic Movement" (sometimes called "One Law"), left their churches and joined with our faith context because they found the church to be somewhat wanting. It didn't make sense, as far as what the Bible actually says, for Gentiles to replace the Jewish people in the covenant promises. It doesn't make sense for God to go back on His word or to change His mind. God spent the first two-thirds of the Bible affirming over and over again His love for the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. Was he supposed to forget all that, turn His word upside down, and create a "spiritual Israel" with the Gentiles? It seems pretty far fetched.
My wife and I attended a church quite a number of years ago and we had the same issues. No one could answer our questions and the people in the church seemed to think it was odd that we should even be asking such things. My wife happened to meet a few people from our local Messianic group and she was immediately hooked. It took a little while longer for me to be convinced that this was the right way to go, but the more I studied and started changing my perspective, prayer life, and practices, the more everything seemed to fit into place.
As my wife continued to deepen her exploration into her own Jewishness, she started attending the Reform synagogue and later developed a relationship with the folks at the local Chabad. I continued to attend the Messianic group in Boise and eventually was asked to sit on the Board of Elders and subsequently took on more teaching and writing duties.
The idea of going back to a Sunday keeping church at this point seems uncomfortable to me, not because I am against churches, but because I would no longer fit in. I don't believe the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday (for Gentiles) and I certainly am not a replacement theologist (even though I've been accused of being just that lately). The suggestion that "my place" was in a church so that Messianic Judaism can remain totally Jewish didn't seem right. Where's the fellowship between Jew and Gentile in the Messiah? Certainly Paul never intended for there to be religious segregation between Jew and Gentile. What about us all being equal in Yeshua's love?
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. -Galatians 3:26-29According to Paul, both Jews and Gentiles, united in the Messiah, are one in Yeshua and, belonging to him, we are all "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." I don't see Paul saying, "but you Jews go to a synagogue and you Gentiles, wait 24 hours and then start worshiping at your churches and be fellow heirs, but in different places with different practices".
That's not to say that the covenant promises to the Jewish nation have been done away with. Far from it. But from my reading of Paul and the other authors of the New Testament, our faith in Yeshua brings the Gentiles into the promises, too.
I know what you're thinking. What about this:
Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. -Acts 15:22-29One of the interpretations of this text, if you read it with no context, is that the Gentile believers were and are only obligated to obey those specific commandments and none of the 613 Commandments that are generally assigned to the Jews.
Let's compare this letter to what is known in Rabbinic Judaism as the Noahide Laws. These are the seven minimal requirements of God for the Gentiles, according to Judaism, in order for the nations to properly acknowledge the One True God of the Universe. Here they are:
- Belief in G-d
- Respect G-d and Praise Him
- Respect Human Life
- Respect the Family
- Respect Human Beings
- Have a Judicial System
- Respect All Creatures
They seem substantially similar to the letter crafted by the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 in terms of limiting the requirements Gentiles have in order to obey God. If certain factions of Messianic Judaism believe that the Jerusalem letter represents a Gentile's only obligations to God, then why did Yeshua come to die for the sins of humanity? In traditional Judaism, all a Gentile must obey is the seven Noahide laws and not even a belief in Yeshua/Jesus is required. If Messianic Judaism, or at least the version I'm discussing here is correct, then as far as the Gentile nations are concerned, Yeshua's coming wasn't particularly significant. Gentiles could obey the Jerusalem Council's version of the Noahide Laws at any point in history. There were plenty of "God-fearers" before there were Gentile Christians. If faith in the Messiah doesn't really graft us in and make us something more than we were before, then most of what's in the New Testament doesn't make a great deal of sense.
As you can see, trying to fit the MJTI viewpoint into what the Bible actually seems to say is enough to make a poor Gentile like me half crazy. I have no desire to engage in "replacement theology" or to somehow rob the Jewish people of covenant promises that belong to them and them alone, but Yeshua's coming, death, and resurrection did something that had never been done before. If that's not true and Yeshua came to maintain the status quo between Jews and Gentiles, then why Matthew 28, Romans 11, or Galatians 3?
However, I did come here to examine my assumptions against the Bible and against the thoughts, opinions, and beliefs of other people of faith, Jews and Gentiles alike. While I've been told that it's impossible for a Gentile to be Messianic and the best he or she can ever achieve is to be a Sunday Christian, I don't believe that. There's more. Exactly how much more, I'm not sure. Being Messianic doesn't turn a Gentile into a "spiritual Jew" but it does open his or her eyes to a new way of looking at the Bible, at Yeshua, at God, and a new way to look at that person in the mirror.
Sometime in the years encompassed between the first and third centuries of the common era, a schism developed between the Messianics who were natural branches and those who were grafted in. As Gentiles started to outnumber the Jewish believers, they began to marginalize the Jews and finally to develop theologies and interpretations of the Bible that were markedly not Jewish and denied the Jewish origins. The Gentiles had Christianity and the Jews had Judaism. Two separate but equal ways of expressing faith in God. To do that, Yeshua had to lose so much Jewishness that he stopped being recognized by Jews as the Messiah and became Jesus: the wholly owned Savior of the Christian church.
Compare that to what I've been talking about and see the problem. The fellowship I once felt existed between Messianic Jew and "Messianic" Gentile has been fractured...at least between some Jews and Gentiles in the movement. If groups like the MJTI become the dominant force in the movement, then there will be no joining in fellowship between Jew and Gentile, except at an exceedingly polite distance. Eventually, Messianic Jews will have Messiah Yeshua and Christian Gentiles will have Jesus Christ...but you could stand the two guys next to each other and they'd hardly look like the same person.
This isn't God's doing, this is what people do. I'll continue to explore my personal questions on this blog including asking much harder questions than I would as a representative of my congregation. I can say to you honestly, that I don't know where this will lead. That's the hazard of questioning assumptions. If you're serious, you have to be ready to change.
One thing that will never change is my faith in God and in the Son of God. Hashem be willing, I'll always stay in his love, and learn to love others...no matter what they may think of me.
Afterword: I haven't come to any final conclusions as far as exactly who I am in relation to other believers, be they Jewish or Gentile, who I am in relation to Yeshua/Jesus, and who I am in relation to God. This blog isn't a "one shot" just to respond to one conversation or one set of human beings. I will continue to use this venue to personally explore my assumptions, my questions, my doubts, and my faith. Hopefully, I'll become a better person and servant of God. That is my sincere hope if it is within Hashem's will.
48 comments:
Really good thoughts James. I read many of the posts you referred to, just don't comment too much. I'm in a transitional period in my faith, however I don't have any kind of Messianic Synagogue or church or whatever within hundreds of miles.
So... I get most my exposure to the messianic movement through reading blogs, websites, and some actual books. I know, not exactly ideal!!! But, it is what it is.
I like the way you think. There seems to be so much division, and as a nonjew, sometimes I feel "second class" at times. Hard to explain, not that I have thin skin or anything, I just don't have the level of knowledge yet to fully engage in conversation.
Still growing - Mike
Wow! Thanks for your comment. After my recent conversation regarding Gentiles and "Messianic Judaism", I'm left questioning many of my assumptions. I've been doing this for about 10 years now, and perhaps it's time to take a look at "the movement", where it's headed and how or if Gentiles fit in.
You and I seem to be at a similar place in our faith at the moment. Nice not to be alone.
James great article, I think what you will find though, is that behind the scenes, this has been going on since the formation of Messianic Judaism. The original idea of MJ was a place solely for Jews, because "the Church" was not suitable and neither decent for Jews to worship or fellowship in, then we are back today with people upset about the MJ movement, because Gentiles are coming in by the droves, which is against the purpose of MJ's original intent...
This of course should start to make everyone laugh, because this is the very lousy argument "BE" uses against "one Law", saying "one law are against the church", the point is "BE Lovers" are against the church because they want to separate themselves from the Church and form their own suitable place to worship, but then take it further, they believe in Bi->2 Houses or 2 Churches, they are more two house than the two house movement, lol, BE wants ultimately to separate itself from gentile leadership and gentile culture... From here, there is so much hypocrisy in the BE message, I don't even know where to start or stop... One place is when discussing what commandments gentiles are to follow, this falls right on its face quicker than melted butter.
The point is, under the broad term MJ, their are some accepting the Gentile influx, others shewing them away...
Where I think we are today, is a great divide, one that is coming within the broad term of Messianic. I tend to think this divide will be good, because I think it will help us see the repercussions of both sides. History repeats itself, we only learn the hard way... SO BRING IT ON!!! :(
"History repeats itself, we only learn the hard way..."
Which history? The nascent "Messianic" Jewish movement of the first century was overtaken by Gentiles as well. We also know that at the time there were also groups of Gentiles who were calling themselves "Jews" when they were not (or Israelites, in today's One-Law vernacular) and sought to Judaize other non-Jews. After Gentiles became the majority and Jewish leadership's influence diminished, however, church history shows us that non-Jewish believers started to issue rulings and eventually reinterpreted the faith so that it the end result was that Jewish believers were marginalized and finally ousted from the participation in the direction of the "Church".
So, is this the repeat of history you are wishing for, to "BRING IT ON!!!" as you put it, Jeruz?
Gene Shlomovich
Thanks for your kind and informative comments, Jeruz. I appreciate you taking the time to visit here. Everything you have said seems to re-enforce the thought that we will all continue to be somewhat of a "mess" in understanding our place in relation to God and each other until the Messiah returns to straighten us all out.
In the meantime, I'm continuing to blog here, trying to get back to basics, peeling back my assumptions like layers of an onion, and journeying through the Bible, seeing what relationship I can build with God. I don't know the ultimate result, but I hope the journey will help me focus more on God and less on the friction, disagreements, and confusion that seems to be happening in the body of faith.
Thanks, again and I hope you'll come back and read more.
Gene, I see you perceive Gentiles as a threat to Messianic Judaism, which I suppose, is why you'd feel better if we relegated ourselves to the church with all its theological inaccuracies. I'm sorry if my being born who I am automatically triggers that response. I'm not trying to hurt you or any Jewish person.
If you take the time to read this article and the one I have subsequently published, you may find that the content here has less to do with Gentiles threatening the safety and security of Messianic Judaism and more to do with me as an individual Gentile attempting to discover if I have a place in a world created by God. You seem well assured that God cares about you in a very specific way. Try to let the rest of us explore the possibility of having a relationship with God as well.
Regarding Gene.. I do see (i think) where he is coming from. My first contact with him was about 6 months ago, on the blogosphere, and he did kind of rub me the wrong way. Since, I have come to realize that he is not as much "anti-gentile", as he is against some movement that he perceives as antisemetic, or some version of replacement theory. This is as a result of a MJ congregation not having a significant jewish presense... roughly said. - Gene - correct me if im wrong.
My thought is, I cannot see how "One Law".. or "Two House", or any other group you want to label that is involved in the MJM, somehow is antisemetic. Seems like that defeats the point somehow. At the same time, I understand many of Genes concerns, and do agree with some of what he says.
Man, am I wishy-washy or what!!LOL!!!
None the less, I am very new to this... way of thinking? Movement? Hard to put my finger on how to "label" this thing. So the more I learn, the more I realize I have sooo much more to learn. I just know, since I have been exploring the MJM, I have never had this enthusiasm for faith on any level.
While some see these "blog wars" as unproductive, to someone like me, I learn ALOT from them... my mind is opening like I never thought possible. I am glad you (James) started this blog to explore this subject further. Go Banter!! Mike
I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me, including Gene, Derek Leman, or anybody else, but I don't particularly appreciate being told that I'm a threat to MJ just because I'm a Gentile who has come to faith in God and in the Jewish Messiah.
As I progress through this blog, I'm not only going to question my own assumptions, I'm going to question everyone else's. How does anyone know what their relationship is with God? How does anyone know that how they're interpreting the Bible is correct? I may not be the person to find a definitive answer to those questions, but as far as my own life is concerned, I have to try. Why was I born if I can't at least attempt to understand my own relationship with God, who created me?
Shalom, James, I find it more useful to demonstrate that non-Jewish believers should follow Torah. That's my answer to FFOZ, UMJC etc, who do not speak for all Jews.
Here is one example:
http://www.torahtimes.org/Col216.html
Thanks for your comments and the verses from Colossians 2:16, Daniel. It is true that some of the more vocal Messianic Jewish organizations don't represent all Messianic Jews, and there are indeed some Jewish people who support Gentile believers sharing worship of and devotion to God and Yeshua with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
I want to discover the path of a Gentile's relationship with God, constructing the structure of that path one stone at a time. So often, we accept the statements told to us by Pastors, Rabbis, and other leaders without stopping the process and examining it for ourselves.
It's been a long time since I've done that and I probably have not questioned my assumptions to the degree I am doing right now. In my experience, it's rare for people of faith or people in general to question their basic assumptions. Since I advocate such an action, I'll start with myself.
I hope to find how (or if) God wants a relationship with the Gentiles of the earth by using my personal journey. I hope you'll follow along and continue to comment on my blog.
May what I find be illuminating for everyone.
Shalom, Daniel.
"Gene, I see you perceive Gentiles as a threat to Messianic Judaism, which I suppose, is why you'd feel better if we relegated ourselves to the church with all its theological inaccuracies."
James - Mike is correct in his perception of my stance - I perceive not Gentiles, but rather certain theologies/ideologies that I find anti-Jewish/anti-semitic/Replacementist as a threat to be exposed (lest it lures in more Gentile followers of Yeshua to the detriment of both the Gentile part of the Body and as a result the Jewish part as well).
"I hope to find how (or if) God wants a relationship with the Gentiles of the earth by using my personal journey."
James, the assumption often presented in One-Law circles is that the only way Gentiles can have a meaningful relationship with G-d of Israel is if they become Mosaic Torah-observant, join Jewish (or "One-Law Messianic") communities and worship with and/or as Jews do in every respect.
But if G-d indeed already has and can have a beautiful and fulfilling relationship with Gentiles who worship in churches, and these Christians choose to love and support their Jewish brethren without assimilating into Judaism, why then even question whether or not G-d DESIRES to have a intimate relationship with Gentiles? Of course he does and we have many more examples of that that can be found in the so called "Messianic Movement"!
Gene,
As always you are walking aimless with the wool over your head targeting the wrong places....
Why don't you go to yours, and my brothers the Jews who attend those "evil Churches?" I guess over there they are not assimilating, right?
You know as well as I, that there are more Jews in the churches than in the messianic movement, but NOOOOO.....The big bad One-Law is responsible for the assimilation, give us a break......
I would like to pick on the commenter Daniel Gregg as a fine example of a Torah-for-Gentiles "friend" of the Jews that we Jews can do without, example of promoter of theology/ideology that's a threat to Jews everywhere.
I have perused through Daniel's website (torahtimes.org), reading a good number of his articles. The impression I walked away is that of a religiously anti-semitic person. You may ask, what kind of a person is "religiously anti-semitic", and what is the difference from the regular run-of-the-mill anti-semities we all know and "love"?
Well, one example we have is that of a well known German theologian Martin Luther. Luther was not a racist in the classic sense, and we can safely say his anti-semitism was not racial. Neither is Daniel Gregg's. In fact, just like Daniel, Luther also welcomed with open arms those Jews who converted to his version of "true faith" (in one of his treaties he even advocated that the funds ceased from "rabbinic" Jews be given to the new Jewish converts - similar to Daniel's article where he advocates that Orthodox Jews be stripped of their power and the power be given to Messianic Jews and One-Law Gentiles who should all move to Israel - or Daniel's New "All Israel").
Luther's antisemitism was of a more persistant kind, the kind that didn't die with the Nazis - his hated Jews RELIGIOUSLY which means that he hated religious Jews (Orthodox Jews of the modern world). He especially hated rabbis, Talmud and everything associated with "rabbinics". This is where much of One-Law movement finds itself today as well, rabidly religiously anti-Jewish in many of its circles, and inasmuch that it views mainstream Messianic Judaism as also posed against them since they perceive it (and rightly so) as being intimately connected with the so called "Rabbinic" Judaism (or the Judaism of the vast majority of world's Jewry since the destruction of the Temple, vs. the imaginary, "pure" "Biblical Judaism" that "One-Law" advocates promote).
There's so much more to say, but I will leave it for later.
Gene, if you read all of the articles I've posted on this blog so far, you'll see my intent is to reduce my assumptions about Gentiles and God down to a minimum and attempt to discover what the Bible says on ths subject. One assumption that I've made in the past is that God actually cares about all mankind and not just the Jewish people. I've temporarily put that assumption aside and started taking a look at the Biblical narrative so see what it says. I believe God does care about everyone who He created in His image, but it's important for me to see that for myself, not just take someone else's word for it.
As a result of this journey, some of my questions or statements may seem odd, but it's part of the process for which I created this blog. You are welcome to follow along and comment. I do ask that you and everyone else at least try to be polite and not resort to name calling and such. I know there's plenty of room for disagrement in the community of faith, but we're all adults who should be able to avoid personalizing conflict.
Thanks.
"Which history? The nascent "Messianic" Jewish movement of the first century was overtaken by Gentiles as well. We also know that at the time there were also groups of Gentiles who were calling themselves "Jews" when they were not (or Israelites, in today's One-Law vernacular) and sought to Judaize other non-Jews. After Gentiles became the majority and Jewish leadership's influence diminished, however, church history shows us that non-Jewish believers started to issue rulings and eventually reinterpreted the faith so that it the end result was that Jewish believers were marginalized and finally ousted from the participation in the direction of the "Church".
So, is this the repeat of history you are wishing for, to "BRING IT ON!!!" as you put it, Jeruz?"
Of course not, you obviously have not followed my other post... I think there should be a mutual leadership, but I never advocated that gentiles should be the "Leaders only" which is what created the errors of the Church, the faith turned into a gentile faith leaving the original faith which is Jewish, obviously a big problem and we have all witnessed that, but again I think there can be mutual leadership as long as it remains Jewish... After all, this is a Jewish faith, not a gentile faith.
The error you are making, is in thinking that separating yourself from Gentiles is the solution, lol, no, the error is fixing the problem not running from it. Jews and Gentiles are to be one in a community... it is not "you stay gentiles with your own made up stolen religion and we Jews will return to our God given religion" No!!! Crazy talk.
No one should be marginalized, but if you go and create a Jew worship only club, gentiles will be marginalized, so then you are no different than Christianity...
There has to be some sort of a middle ground, and BE does not offer that, but let me go further, neither does one Law at this moment, at least as a majority of One Law that I have met, excluding leadership, are against anything Talmud or Oral Torah... and I definitely see that to be a problem, but of course this still stems back to the error of the Church, something that needs to be corrected.
"No one should be marginalized, but if you go and create a Jew worship only club, gentiles will be marginalized, so then you are no different than Christianity... "
First of all, with all its faults I believe that Christianity is G-d's chosen path of the non-Jewish followers of Messiah and G-d has used it to spread the knowledge of the Jewish G-d and Israel's Messiah throughout the world.
Secondly, being different and in charge of one's own congregation is not "marginalizing" someone else who is different. I am not marching into a [fill in the nationality or ethnicity here] congregation and demanding they accommodate me and my spiritual needs as a Jew, or else I accuse them of racism and discrimination. We should rightly expect that such selfish and inconsiderate person be struck by lightning.
Yes, I believe in equality of all believers in the Body in eyes of G-d, but I do not believe that all believers have been given equal roles in the Kingdom, or that all will be leaders (or have equal authority over all things) - do you? Neither do I believe that Gentiles will have leadership either over the nation of Israel or that they should have one over a Jewish congregation (by Jewish, I mean one that has Jewish majority - not what currently passes for 'Jewish' in MM). In fact, we read that the twelve JEWISH Apostles will be set up as judges over the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28)!
Jeruz, you do know that there were "assemblies of the Gentiles" in the first century, right (Romans 16:4)? And that the Jewish believers continued in both the Torah observance and their Jewish traditions, while Gentiles were explicitly exempt from BOTH? It doesn't mean that Gentiles were not present in synagogues - of course they were. Were these Gentiles "One Law" or "Two-House"? Were these Gentiles expected to Judaize and convert to Judaism, and to live and worship according to Jewish traditions? I don't think so!
*"First of all, with all its faults I believe that Christianity is G-d's chosen path of the non-Jewish followers of Messiah and G-d has used it to spread the knowledge of the Jewish G-d and Israel's Messiah throughout the world."*
Which part of Christianity is God's chosen path? Is it the replacement theology? Maybe its the part where Jews are marginalized?
I believe God has used Christianity, but I also believe just like God used Nebuchadnezzar, it is not God's best or chosen path, instead He is working with Christianity even in its fallen erroneous state, trying to bring it in compliance with His chosen path.
*"Secondly, being different and in charge of one's own congregation is not "marginalizing" someone else who is different."*
Of course. This is why there can be mutual leadership, as long as a standard is being followed. The standard being God's culture.
*"I am not marching into a [fill in the nationality or ethnicity here] congregation and demanding they accommodate me and my spiritual needs as a Jew, or else I accuse them of racism and discrimination. We should rightly expect that such selfish and inconsiderate person be struck by lightning."*
You seem to think faith fits whatever culture you want... but this is not the case, God has His own culture, that is not like the nations, that is against the nations in some cases... And when one comes into the Faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they can't turn it into a Babylonian culture faith... sorry, but what you are implying is a bit absurd.
For example: If I have a house(religion) and you ask to live in my house(religion), you do not get to make up your own rules(Torah), you abide by the rules(Torah) of the house(religion).
Just because one is a Gentile, does not mean they get to make up their own biblical religion or biblical culture, no, they are not joining just any religion, they are joining the religion of Israel, the Religion of the God of Israel. They are not joining the religion of Babylon or any other gentile religion.
*"Yes, I believe in equality of all believers in the Body in eyes of G-d, but I do not believe that all believers have been given equal roles in the Kingdom, or that all will be leaders (or have equal authority over all things) - do you?"*
Of course not, and I have never advocated that point... and in a practical sense that would never work on a sociological level, if everyone were leaders.
*"Neither do I believe that Gentiles will have leadership either over the nation of Israel or that they should have one over a Jewish congregation (by Jewish, I mean one that has Jewish majority - not what currently passes for 'Jewish' in MM)."*
Right, all the tribes of Israel were given different roles... again not my point. I don't think any Gentile should be running the nation of Israel either, as I also don't believe any Israelite should either, but specifically who God has chosen.
*"In fact, we read that the twelve JEWISH Apostles will be set up as judges over the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28)!"*
Exactly, who God selected, so not just anybody.
*"Jeruz, you do know that there were "assemblies of the Gentiles" in the first century, right (Romans 16:4)?And that the Jewish believers continued in both the Torah observance and their Jewish traditions, while Gentiles were explicitly exempt from BOTH?"*
No where does the bible say gentiles are exempt.
*"It doesn't mean that Gentiles were not present in synagogues - of course they were. Were these Gentiles "One Law" or "Two-House"? Were these Gentiles expected to Judaize and convert to Judaism, and to live and worship according to Jewish traditions? I don't think so!"*
If gentiles were present in Synagogues as they were, they were expected to abide by the rules... if gentiles were exempt from specific commandments, it would have made fellowship extremely difficult.
"No where does the bible say gentiles are exempt."
"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, NO MORE BURDEN TO LAY UPON YOU, except these necessary things..." (Acts 15:28)
Now, an automatic One-Law response usually goes something like this: "Does it mean that Gentiles can murder?" Well, were not such sins forbidden even from the time of Able and Kain, and certainly Noah?
"If gentiles were present in Synagogues as they were, they were expected to abide by the rules..."
Yes, if the rules in a synagogue were that only Jews can serve as synagogue leaders/rabbis and only Jews can be called up to Torah, only Jews can be bar-Mitzvated, would you agree to abide by them or would you cry "discrimination"?
"I also don't believe any Israelite should either, but specifically who God has chosen."
Well, there are many leaders within Israel, beyond kings, being prophets and emissaries. The point is that Jews are leaders over their own Jewish communities.
"You seem to think faith fits whatever culture you want... but this is not the case, God has His own culture, that is not like the nations, that is against the nations in some cases"
Jeruz, what you claim above and the historical and practical reality of what G-d has actually done through the nations are two completely different things. G-d himself created differences in nations, it was his master-plan that they have their own unique cultures, which includes how they worship the G-d of the Universe. These differences are ultimately G-d created and orchestrated. Acts 15 laid to rest the claims of Judaizers who sought to convert Gentiles to Judaism. So, as long as whatever "Gentiles are physical/spiritual Israelites" groups keep popping up here and there, trying to claim Israelites heritage and identity for themselves, you will not win much sympathy from the Jewish people.
The twelve emissaries will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Great!
So then who will judge the nations? Messiah? Doesn't He judge everyone? Or does He only judge His own people while His Father will judge all (except those who participate in the first resurrection)at the second resurrection?
Or does Messiah judge the Gentiles who trust in Him and the twelve emissaries judge the twelve tribes at a different time and place?
From a practical standpoint you couldn't have one group of people who were required to live one way in Messiah being judged at the same time and in the same way as others who were not required (or "obligated") to live with the same set of requirements.
But Sha'ul said that we will all stand before the judgement seat of Messiah.
Maybe Yeshua has two types of judgement books, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. And since it is our works as believers that will be judged, sounds like the Gentiles should have an easy time of it.
Is this the Good News?
"From a practical standpoint you couldn't have one group of people who were required to live one way in Messiah being judged at the same time and in the same way as others who were not required (or "obligated") to live with the same set of requirements."
Efrayim... once again, I urge you to re-read New Covenant scriptures about your so called "same set of requirements" for Jews and Gentiles:
"All who sin apart from the Torah will also perish apart from the Torah, and all who sin under the Torah will be judged by the Torah." (Romans 2:12)
and....
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who DO NOT HAVE THE TORAH, do by nature things required by the Torah, they are a Torah for themselves, even though THEY DO NOT HAVE THE TORAH, since they show that the requirements of the Torah are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when G-d will judge men's secrets through Yeshua the Messiah, as my gospel declares." (Romans 2:14-15)
So, as you can see - G-d will judge those under Torah by Written Torah's requirements, and he will judge Gentiles by the "Torah" written on their hearts.
Instead of having the "MITZVOT ENVY", you should rejoice (just as the earliest Gentiles believers in Acts 15:31 did!) that G-d will not judge you nor will he discipline you by taking away your rewards for not being sufficiently observant of Mosaic Law as He will of the Jewish believers. Think about it!
Of course, Efrayim, Batya's "Gentiles are Ephrayimites/Lost Tribes of Israel" ideology you cling to prevents you from seeing this reality clearly and the Good News of the Kingdom for the Gentiles.
@James: well stated. Your questions invite contemplation. Your candid but careful responses quench the fiery arrows lobbed - arrows that couch bigotry in nice theological words and supposed doctrinal positions. Your measured tone shows the hypocrisy of those who claim "One Law people are meannnnnn!" /smile
James said:
“However, I did come here to examine my assumptions against the Bible…”
---
If only EVERYONE who professes faith would have the same approach!
Unfortunately most remain content and committed to follow what they have been taught instead of searching the scriptures for themselves.
It is man’s traditions that caused the divisions between Jewish and gentile believers in the first place – and it is man’s traditions that maintain and perpetuate those divisions.
What a difference it would make if we all GENUINELY sought God’s views and accepted what HE says instead of clinging to what we’ve been led to accept and believe.
Tim
Uh Gene,
Did you really mean to quote Romans 2:12? Because if you did, and in the context your are trying to infer, then you have just condemned Gentiles to perishing as you have said that the Torah is not for them.
And while we're at it, how can a person, Jew or Gentile, sin apart from Torah? Sure, they may be breaking some commandment, but they don't know that and would correspondingly not have any idea that they need a Saviour would they? Not part of the plan.
But wait, if someone with a knowledge of Torah sins, wouldn't they perish as well? Jew or Gentile?
So what is the context of what Sha'ul is saying? That they who are going to perish without Torah do not need Torah because they are Gentiles?
Because that is what you seem to be saying.
And how can a person have the Torah written on their heart and yet not have the Torah? Or is it a different Torah that gets written on the heart of a Gentile than on the heart of a Jew? You know that the promised new covenant was given to the House of Judah and the House of Israel. In other words, it was promised to both houses that the Torah of YHWH would be written on their hearts. And yet here is Sha'ul saying that Gentiles who do the works of Torah because it is written on their hearts will be justified before YHWH rather than those who simply hear the words of Torah.
Are following this OK Gene?
The Gentile followers of Messiah who received the letter from Jerusalem rejoiced because they had been given permission and a way to keep an entry level Torah until they could learn the rest. Not for justification, but for righteousness. Because in their hearts they longed for righteousness, right? And why? Because the Torah of YHWH had been written on their hearts and Torah is spiritual.
"And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?"
If he keeps the Law? And who is this who is keeping the Torah of YHWH and will judge the Jew who does keep the Torah of YHWH? Care to speculate Gene?
I certainly do not have what you have called "mitzvot envy". I perform the mitzvot of YHWH without controversy or fear. If someone like yourself does not accept that fact, oh well.
And you may want to read Z'kharyah chapter 8. He addresses both the houses of Israel because they had not been brought back together yet. I bring this up because Z'kharyah prophesied some 48 years after the small percentage of Yehudim returned from Babylon.
And did you know that where there is no Torah there is no sin? Reconcile that fact with your quotes from Romans.
I've told you before and I will tell you again, I follow Messiah, not a man or a woman. Perhaps you would better understand what I am saying if you would acknowledge that simple fact.
Give it a try, see what happens.
Gene,
Whoops, you forgot verse 13:
"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."
So who is doing Torah in that verse?
A few verses later we read this:
"So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?"
And who would this uncircumcised man be, a Jew or a Gentile? And is the person to whom Sha'ul is referring keeping the requirements of the Torah of YHWH? And if they are, which requirements would they be keeping?
I look forward to your answer.
Just to let everyone know, Blogger seems to be experiencing issues with comments not appearing. This has been happening for the last 12 hours or so. It's not just this blog but a number of blogger blogs. I notified the help desk and saw other notices from folks having similar issues. Hopefully, the problem will be fixed soon.
"The Gentile followers of Messiah who received the letter from Jerusalem rejoiced because they had been given permission and a way to keep an entry level Torah until they could learn the rest. "
Efrayim... I've really tried to look up this One-Law mantra, ahem, explanation, but I just can't find this in anywhere the Bible. Where can I look it up?
"And did you know that where there is no Torah there is no sin? Reconcile that fact with your quotes from Romans."
It's easy to reconcile if one doesn't ignore the verses that say that G-d places his basic laws of morality into our conciseness / our hearts. But we can go to the very beginning - there was no Torah of Moses when Cain killed Able, and yet, G-d said the following to Cain:
"Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, SIN is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Genesis 4:6-7)
What "sin" is G-d talking about here - was it a violation of the Written Torah / Mosaic Law G-d gave to Israel many centuries later, or was it the "Torah" that is written on the heart of every human being ever born (as Romans 2:14-15 clearly states) by which all men who were born apart from Written Torah will be judged? As most people can see, One-Law ideology takes a lot of mental gymnastics to dislodge the scriptures from it's Jewish moorings and Israel's heritage.
Of course I meant to say:
"If he keeps the Law? And who is this who is keeping the Torah of YHWH and will judge the Jew who does NOT keep the Torah of YHWH? Care to speculate Gene?"
"Care to speculate Gene?"
Efrayim... I did - please read my earlier post outlining two "torahs" clearly described in the Bible - the Torah placed in the heart of every human being by G-d himself (from Adam to you), and the Written Torah given to Israel through Moses, with many - but not all - instructions in it applicable specifically for the Jewish nation (to set it apart) and no one else.
**"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, NO MORE BURDEN TO LAY UPON YOU, except these necessary things..." (Acts 15:28)
Now, an automatic One-Law response usually goes something like this: "Does it mean that Gentiles can murder?" Well, were not such sins forbidden even from the time of Able and Kain, and certainly Noah?"**
Nice contradiction of terms. Then we can't say that those four things are the only necessary laws for Gentiles. If you had approached Acts 15 in its context you would come away with a better understanding of what is actually being addressed and a hint for you is not setting up a list of laws for gentiles.
**"Yes, if the rules in a synagogue were that only Jews can serve as synagogue leaders/rabbis and only Jews can be called up to Torah, only Jews can be bar-Mitzvated, would you agree to abide by them or would you cry "discrimination"?**
Yes, when we limit what how people can honor God, then we are discriminating, but lets go further, is this really all the issue would be, for the 1st Century believers it was much worse than this, even eating or fellow-shipping with a Gentile was off-limits, is that what God wants? According to you yes, and there is no problem with it in your eyes, but thankfully we do not follow the bible of Gene! :)
**"Jeruz, what you claim above and the historical and practical reality of what G-d has actually done through the nations are two completely different things. G-d himself created differences in nations, it was his master-plan that they have their own unique cultures, which includes how they worship the G-d of the Universe. These differences are ultimately G-d created and orchestrated."**
Nice opinion, but not biblical.
**"Acts 15 laid to rest the claims of Judaizers who sought to convert Gentiles to Judaism."**
We are not talking converting Gentiles to Judaism, but Gentiles following the God they joined covenant with and following His rules, Torah.
Gene,
There isn't a written record of everything that YHWH told Adam and his children. Not that we have in our hands anyway. So speculating that the Torah written on the hearts of "all mankind" is the same as the Torah written on the hearts of believers in the renewed covenant is just that, speculation.
King David said that the esteem of YHWH is written in the heavens for all to see so that man is without excuse. But was that said in reference to the acknowledging of the existence of YHWH, or do the heavens contain the specifics of serving YHWH?
Just to be clear, I am not arguing the fact that YHWH gave the Torah of Moshe to the Israelites at Sinai. He certainly didn't give it to the Philistines.
And I'm sure that you are not taking the position that the kingdom of Israel was not divided after the reign of King Solomon.
We are only differing on the specifics of what you call the "Gentiles" and I call the "Israelites" are required to do with the Torah of YHWH.
Since the Levitical priesthood and the temple service are no longer in place, we are left with fewer specifics of obedience than in the past. Perhaps we could narrow this down and see just what the problem is.
I believe that I am responsible for the following commandments:
1. the Ten Words (commandments)
2. the Feasts of YHWH
3. wearing the tzitziyot
4. eating biblical kosher
5. loving my neighbor
6. all that Yeshua said
7. trying to get along with my brother Judah (if possible)
There are others but you get the picture. Now is there anything in that list that you would say I am prohibited from, and if so, could you please show me the scripture?
And what in that short list do you see as an effort to steal anything from anyone? Or replace anyone?
I, and others like me, are not your enemy Gene. But you and I do have a real enemy though, and he will stop at nothing to destroy us and every other believer if possible. And it is our unity in the faith that makes him nervous. Perhaps fussing over the details of halacha is just what he wants.
It deserves some thought.
"I believe that I am responsible for the following commandments..."
Efrayim, this is only because you, like many others in Batya's MIA, have thoroughly convinced yourself, while having no personal biographical, historical or scientific evidence to support your beliefs, that even though you were born a Gentile, you are actually a "Lost Israelite" - or in your Two-House jargon - an "Ephraimite".
Who can argue with such logic and such "evidence"? It's fruitless (although I met a number of former TH "believers" - so, there's hope). You may believe whatever tickles your fancy, Efrayim, but history will look back on this with the same incredulity that it currently views British Israelism and the World Wide Church of G-d (your direct predecessors).
Hey Gene,
Finally something we both agree on. This so-called "ephramite" is trying to hijack every blog and peddle his dameged goods and bankropt doctrine. Oy, Vey.....
"Finally something we both agree on."
Yeah, Dan - I guess when the so called fake "Ephraimites" decide to attack our people (to reclaim "their" inheritance), you and I will at last be on the same team!:)
No Gene, I am responsible because it is in the scriptures, not because of anything else.
But I have come to the understanding that you and Dan do not really read the scriptures for yourselves. You just follow what you have been told by your rabbis. You can't think outside of the box they have built for you.
So you guys stay in the rabbi box so that all can see where the blind leading the blind ends up. History has shown and will show again where the errors are and where the truth of YHWH stands.
Neither of you know who Efrayim is because your rabbis won't tell you the truth. And it has become obvious that you are not allowed to read it for yourself without your rabbi glasses on.
So fire away. Show everyone what your made of so that they can avoid the same rabbi trap.
Was it your rabbi that told you we are going to steal "your" land? Did he tell you that we sneak into Jews houses at night and steal their heritage right out from under them? Why, I have a whole box full of stolen heritages under my bed. I sell them on Ebay.
And after we take the land and kick out all the rabbis and their followers we can just sit back in Jerusalem and enjoy the profits from the stolen heritages we sold.
Can't wait. I guess I better hurry and pick which tribe I want to pretend to be from. How about Judah? There are already lots of people pretending to be from that tribe. I should fit right in.
You guys better start making preparations. We coming to get you. All us Efrayimers are looking for you. Especially those with a big fat heritage, you know, the real Jews. They fetch a much better price.
Bwahahaha......
Before this conversation get's any more heated, you might want to stop and read this: Would I Die for You? Today's step on my journey.
Quoting Efrayim (all from a single comment):
"You just follow what you have been told by your rabbis..."
"...you guys stay in the rabbi box..."
"...your rabbi glasses on..."
"...same rabbi trap..."
"Was it your rabbi that told you..."
Now, after the above tirade, can anyone tell me straight faced that the Two-House religion is not a place where many anti-semities find their haven?
Gene,
Did your rabbi tell you that the two houses of Israel are not in scripture?
Did your rabbi tell you that Efrayim has nothing to do with Israel?
Did your rabbi tell you that Batya is a false prophetess?
Did your rabbi tell you that Gentiles are pretending to be Jews so that they can steal your land and heritage?
Does your rabbi have a phone number so that I can call him and ask him what he believes?
Because unlike you, I will actually make the call.
Efrayim... we allocate as much time to discussing Two-House religion in our synagogue as we do to discussing Mormons, JW's, Seven Day Adventists, British Israelites, Black Hebrew Israelites, Rastafarians, World Wide Church of God, Christian Identity, The Lawkeepers, and many other pseudo-Israelite religions which also claim to be Lost Tribes of Israel (or "claim to be Jews but lie" groups), using much the same "evidence" as your religion does.
I've turned on comment moderation again thanks to some rather rough discussion between Efrayim and Gene. I don't care if you two don't agree with each other and express your opinions, but if you feel you need to engage in what amounts to a "verbal fistfight", I'll start deleting your comments rather than publishing them.
OK, the sheriff's back in town :-)
Gene I can use the phone number on your fellowship website. I don't know how far I'll get, but I will try.
But I don't think I could attend one of your services as they seem to be closed to non-Jews.
When: Every Saturday at 10:30AM.
Where: 11860 W. State Road 84, Ste A16, Davie, FL 33325 (MapQuest Map)
Bring your Jewish family & friends!
Gene your rabbi may be a great guy who loves Yeshua with all his heart. Perhaps we will get along just fine.
The dreaded Blogger comment bug is back. I tried to approve a comment and it threw an error: Here's the comment as it appears in my email.
Efrayim has left a new comment on your post "Fractured Fellowship":
OK, the sheriff's back in town :-)
Gene I can use the phone number on your fellowship website. I don't know how far I'll get, but I will try.
But I don't think I could attend one of your services as they seem to be closed to non-Jews.
When: Every Saturday at 10:30AM.
Where: 11860 W. State Road 84, Ste A16, Davie, FL 33325 (MapQuest Map)
Bring your Jewish family & friends!
Gene your rabbi may be a great guy who loves Yeshua with all his heart. Perhaps we will get along just fine.
James,
I'm wondering if you got my comment or not, since you approve them. If you didn't, I'll try to post it again, just let me know. If you did see it and just didn't approve, no problem, just let me know.
Thanks,
Ahron
Gene,
Read this:
http://fllowheirs.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-there-any-difference.html
No difference.
Gene,
read this:
http://fllowheirs.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-there-any-difference.html
No difference.
Dan, for all we know, the Palestinians/Arabs living in and around the Land could also be Lost Tribes of Israel/Epharimites! In fact, geographically, historically and genetically speaking the Palestinians have a FAR greater chance of actually being the supposed Ephraimites than any WASP living in Georgia who claims to be member of the "tribe".
Gene,
Now read this and understand that "One Law" has nothing in common with the "Ephramite" Micky Mouse doctrine:
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Two%20House%20Fatal%20Errors.pdf
In fact we completely reject them.
"Now read this and understand that "One Law" has nothing in common with the "Ephramite" Micky Mouse doctrine"
Dan - I understand that there are many "One-Lawyers" who have nothing to do with "Two-House" teaching. However, I think it's also fare to say that while not every One-Lawyer is an Ephraimite, every Ephraimite is a One-Lawyer. In fact, from my studies of the Ephraimite movement, I would says that it was created by One-Lawyers who were dissatisfied by Gentile believers' having only a SPIRITUAL connection to Israel (connection that they obviously viewed as inferior!) and instead longed for a more tangible, more direct, PHYSICAL, racial/bloodline connection to the historic Hebrew nation.
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