Sunday, August 8, 2010

What Did Jesus Change? Sons of Abraham

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. -Matthew 3:7-9

I'll say upfront that some of you reading this won't like what I'm about to say and certainly will argue against my opinion, but I've been considering this for quite some time and today, I gave it a voice.

I've been trying to identify what specifically has been bothering me about the various comments in the Messianic blogsphere since I started involving myself in this environment. While there have been blogs seeking to establish unity within the Messianic realm posted lately, such as Dan Benzvi's Is a meaningful dialoge possible? You bet! and Judah Himango's Some things we agree on, the question is, have the discussions been agreeable? Not really.

One of the issues for me is that the representatives of the Bilateral Ecclesiology "branch" of Messianic Judiasm (though this isn't the only expression of MJ), seem to equate the idea of them needing to be treated with respect as needing to be agreed with all the time. Of course, we all want everyone to agree with us. That's human nature. Most of us realize that this is an unrealistic desire, though.

I recall Gene Shlomovich saying that there have been One Law and Two House representatives who have "repented" and have since agreed with his position. Does that mean if I disagree with Gene or more generally with MJ/BE I have sinned and need to repent? Is having a difference of opinion a sin?

It seems as if MJ/BE is saying that, because they are "Sons of Abraham", they should automatically be respected (and perhaps agreed with), regardless of anything else including what they say and how they behave towards others. While I agree that Jewish people (Messianic and non-Messianic alike) have a unique covenant relationship with God, that relationship doesn't entitle said-Jewish people automatic respect and deference in any debate, discussion, and encounter, simply because of their status as Jews.

Consider what John said in the above-referenced quote to the Pharisees and Sadducees when they presented that argument. Also, consider the words of Paul:
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. -Romans 11:17-23
No, I didn't miss the part that says the Jewish people are the natural branches and the Gentiles are the "wild olive branches", nor the part later on that says all of Israel will be saved, but look at the "glue" that keeps both the natural and wild branches attached to the root. It's faith. Any of the branches can be glued in or knocked off depending on their faith status, not their ethnic status and not even their covenant status. Righteousness isn't a matter of who you are but a matter of your faith and what you do with it. This goes all the way back to Abraham.
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. -Genesis 15:6
Paul confirms this in Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Respect isn't automatic, even in the sight of God. It's what we do, our "fruits" that make a difference, not just our covenant status. How you tie your tzitzit or if you do or don't wear tzitzit, while important within its context, isn't as important as the weighter matters of the Torah. It's these weighter matters, love, kindness, justice, charity, that are never mentioned in any of our blog conversations and comments. While One Law is most often accused of lacking these characteristics, I haven't seen them discussed significantly by MJ either.

Naturally, we must have a relationship with God in the first place, but once that's established, it's what we do with that relationship that counts. We can't simply wear our status like a t-shirt or some other garment and expect that's the length, depth, and breadth of our responsibility to God and to other people.

No, we don't earn salvation, it's free, but we still have to make the choice to accept an active relationship with God and then accept the lifestyle that goes along with it. For instance, how many religious leaders expect to be automatically obeyed and respected just because they're religious leaders, not because they're necessarily leading a holy and Godly lifestyle? I'm not comparing the individuals or the groups associated with MJ/BE with such leaders, but only offer them as examples of folks who thought their "status" earned them respect and entitlement, not their behavior.

Respect can't be demanded. You can't insist I respect you and seriously believe I'll roll over. Even children don't respect their parents beyond a certain point unless the parent behaves in the child's and family's best interest and not just in their own.

In Judaism, you have a position relative to God in the merit of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but that diminishes or even deletes any personal responsibility. It's why a Jewish man, even if he is a Buddist or an atheist (but not a Christian or Messianic) can go into any synagogue in the world and still get an aliyah and read from the Torah.

So what did Yeshua change in terms of the Sons of Abraham? How about this:
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. -Galatians 3:29
Paul was specifically addressing Gentiles in this letter and so was affirming that non-Jewish believers are also Sons of Abraham, and not merely Sons of Noah, as rabbinic Judaism would consider Gentiles.

While we can say that Yeshua came for the lost sheep of Israel and not for the Gentiles, most of these arguments specifically ignore (as I've mentioned before) John 10:14-16 when Yeshua says he is the Good Shepherd of both the Jewish and Gentile flocks, and Matthew 28:16-20 when he commands his Jewish disciples to also make disciples for him from among all non-Jewish people on Earth.

Also, while we may argue about which commands of Yeshua do and don't apply to Gentile believers, consider these examples that go to the very core of our faith:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." -John 13:34-35
Yes, Yeshua was speaking to his Jewish disciples, but are we to truly believe this doesn't apply to the later Gentile disciples? Does it mean that Jewish disciples are only supposed to love other Jewish disciples and Gentile disciples are only supposed to love other Gentile disciples, in some sort of "bilateral" way? If we only show love and kindness to those who are like us and disrespect those who are not, to quote Yeshua, "..even the tax collectors and pagans do that".

Of course, the two greatest commandments (Matthew 22:34-40, for example) contain what I consider the two "big buckets" for all the commandments. We are to love our God with everything we've got and, out of that love for God, we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. When Yeshua said All the Torah and the Prophets hang on these two commandments, it's as if he were saying that they were the containers for all of the Torah and the writings of the Prophets. While we can all take these directives at face value and run with them, we can also dig into the buckets and explore what they contain...a wealth of God's wisdom, justice, and mercy for every disciple of Yeshua. If the words of Yeshua are not obeyed by all his followers, Jewish and Gentile alike then the little minutiae we argue about doesn't amount to much.

Those commandments are at the heart of the "stuff" we argue about (food, tzitzit, etc...). The "stuff" is just the interface by which we operationalize our encounters with God, they are not a means unto themselves. Just like the sacrifices didn't save, though they had meaning and purpose.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
-Psalm 51:16-17
It's the inner man who matters. Yes, Judaism says that even a good deed committed with a bad motive "counts", but it doesn't mean that having bad attitudes and going through the motions is desirable. It's just a place to start.

In dealing with my walk and with the MJ/BE/OL communities, I have considered walking away for it, usually due to the lack of unity I experience, not within my local group, but with the larger body of Messianic believers. I don't mind disagreements and discussion, it's the name calling and the snide, (and sometimes) behind the back remarks I find unworthy of followers of the Messiah. You may all be Rabbis and have advanced religous degrees and places of leadership within your own congregations, but that doesn't make it right to violate the command of Yeshua or the dignity of others.

In Judaism, the concept of Lashon Hara (the evil tongue) has much thought and literature dedicated to it, yet few if any of us pay any attention to it and feel free to violate this tenet whenever we please.

In our zeal to find a movement or person to follow that gives us an "edge", we've forgotten these words of Paul.
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. -1 Corinthians 1:10-17
If we have one shepherd, how come we're not acting like one flock. It's not like we're even acting like two flocks (Jews and Gentiles) but half a dozen flocks or more, each with our own priorities and requirements that we adhere to, regardless of the impact on others. I don't care who you are, Jew or Gentile, Messianic or One Law, Rabbi, or Pastor or whatever other label you attach to yourself. Messiah is all or he is nothing.

It's not about having all the answers, it's about continuing to ask questions. Our study of the Word, along with our walk with the Messiah isn't just something that happens once and then we're done. It's a journey we take all our lives. Sometimes we find we've made a wrong turn and have to change direction, but that's part of the journey

The greatest single thing for which I admire FFOZ is their courage in admitting they believe they made a mistake and then taking steps to correct it, no matter what the cost. I may not always agree with everything they say, but they have the courage of their convictions and a sincere desire to serve the Messiah.

You may think you have all the answers and I know that I don't. I know I'll pursue God all the days of my life, looking for how he wants me to serve Him better.

Being holy is a process, not an event. Don't imagine you've arrived. Once you stop questioning your assumptions and believe you are right all the time, you've stopped growing in God. You may impress the people around you or you may hurt or damage others, even to the point of preventing people from coming to faith, but are you truly listening to God?

That's how you teach...not as an expert...but as a student. Someone who expects to continue learning throughout life. As I said, it's not so much having all the answers, but being able to ask the right questions.

What did Jesus change? He brought the Gentiles into the family of God. I'm not sure there was agreement in the original Messianic Jewish movement about what to do with us and I'm sure there isn't agreement with what to do with us now. But we're here because God wants us to be here and because Yeshua is our shepherd and we, just like the Jewish flock, are also his sheep...and sons of Abraham.

33 comments:

Gene Shlomovich said...

Oy, James, you threw around a lot of accusations toward MJs in their dealings with OL ideology and its proponents, which you summed up with a serious and, I believe, unjustified charge of "Lashon Hara", because it simply doesn't fit the definition.

Wikipedia: "Speech is considered to be lashon hara if it says something negative about a person or party, is not previously known to the public, is not seriously intended to correct or improve a negative situation, and most importantly, is true."

As far saying that a "simple difference of opinion" doesn't constitute a "sin" - that I must disagree with. Some opinions are much more weighty than others, and go far beyond a surface issue and go much deeper - they flow from the heart. Among many Christians today, for example, holding to and teaching an "opinion" of Replacement Theology constitutes a gross sin against G-d and the Jewish people, as it can be readily demonstrated to have directly and indirectly resulted in murder of millions of Jewish people over the last 2000 years.

Many Messianic Jews consider One-Law theology to be a version of Replacement Theology:

"This is the old replacement theology with a new twist. The new and true Israel is said to replace the old Israel of the flesh, but the new twist is that this new Israel is still to keep the Torah. The arguments are the same as in replacement theology but with the addition of all keeping the Torah." (R. Daniel Juster and R. Russ Resnik, One Law Movements White Paper )

As you can see, some "simple differences in opinion" have had far reaching and grave consequences for the Body of the Messiah. What we believe deep in our hearts comes out in your mouths and it does matter.

James said...

People often justify saying even hurtful things of others with the words "but it's true". My understanding of wronging a person in speech is that it can be wrong to say something even if you believe it's true, particularly in public, if it damages the other party in some way. I'm not aiming the "lashon hara" accusation at any one individual and really not even just at MJ/BE. In reviewing the various comments in the Messianic blogs, we can all be guilty of slamming the other guy in order to justify ourselves and our needs to be significant or important.

Gene, you previously mentioned that we all make a set of assumptions about our faith, our beliefs, and what the Bible seems to say about them (I'm extrapolating a bit here). In that sense, we are all operating off of "opinions". If the Bible could not be interpreted in more than one way, there would only be one Bible-based religion. Since Christianity has jillions of denominations and sects, and Judaism is certainly more than one thing, how can you say that the other guy's opinion is a "sin" but your opinion is not? That's like saying only you are right, either as an individual or as a member of MJ/BE, and everyone is wrong.

You jump right into "replacement theology" and the "murder of millions of Jews" as examples of opinions differing from yours, however they are extreme examples. Not every difference of opinion leads to murder and injustice. You act as if you and MJ/BE are the only arbiters of truth and the will of God on Earth. All I'm saying is that you're not. I'm not saying you and MJ/BE is bad or evil, only that you represent one interpretation of how we can look at the Bible. If I have another viewpoint, it does not automatically make me a sinner or an evil person, it only makes me someone who sees things differently than you do.

I believe a lot of different theologies can represent wrongness in the world (take Islam, for example), but I don't think I'm automatically better than other people because I disagree with them.

The one point we seem to agree on this morning is, "What we believe deep in our hearts comes out in your mouths and it does matter". That is exactly the point I'm making but I'm saying it applies to everyone, not just everyone except MJ/BE. MJ/BE isn't immune to the same standards God applies to the rest of us.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Respect can't be demanded. You can't insist I respect you and seriously believe I'll roll over."

James, nowhere do I demand respect. You don't have to respect my opinions either. Jews (of any stripes) usually don't demand "respect" from others - leaving us alone is usually satisfactory enough. However, I choose to dialog with OL proponents because I would like to see certain positive changes in the Jewish-Gentile understanding, especially in the Body of the Messiah. I and other MJs have identified certain bottlenecks in that relationship - one of them, at the present time, is the One-Law theology (however, and thankfully, it's fading fast, as many Gentiles are abandoning this theology with FFOZ courageously leading the way).

"MJ/BE isn't immune to the same standards God applies to the rest of us."

James, you don't have to look at yourself as inferior to Jews. True, we don't have the corner on all truth (hey, most of us missed our Messiah). That said, looking at things from a Jewish/Israel's perspective helps one better understand the mind of G-d and his plan for the future.

James said...

"James, nowhere do I demand respect."

I'm glad to "hear" you say that (well, "read", since I can't actually hear you). There are times when, perhaps during an impassioned response, you seem to expect respect for your position to take the form of agreement and any disagreement must equal disrespect. It's hard to perceive intent in a text-only communication venue.

"That said, looking at things from a Jewish/Israel's perspective helps one better understand the mind of G-d and his plan for the future.

No argument there, but even in that, there is variability of opinion and understanding. Certainly, how Orthodox Judaism sees the Jewish/Israel perspective would differ from MJ/BE if only because they wouldn't see MJ/BE as a Judaism.

It's clear that, even within the body of Messiah, we have a long way to go to understand one another and to obey the weightier of matters of Torah while leaving the lighter matters on the back burner. At times we can all "major in the minors", but that's human nature.

As far as this blog post, I wrote it to not only illustrate one of the things I believe Messiah changed, which is bringing the Gentiles to the table as members of the flock of Yeshua (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor), but to try to punctuate the point that no one individual or group has the exclusive rights to truth, Messiah, or God (or truth, justice and the American way if you're a fan of the old Superman TV show, but then, I'm showing my age).

Thanks for the responses and the willingness to engage me in my (sometimes) crankiness. Unity will never happen in the larger body of Messiah if each group is busy circling their wagons and serving just their own interests. It's not just a Jewish thing...it's a humanity thing.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"no one individual or group has the exclusive rights to truth, Messiah, or God"

If we are truly to believe that, that Messianic Jews do not possess a great measure of truth that has been lost since the first century, then I do not understand all the flocking to Messianic Judaism by the Gentiles and the copying by the Gentiles of Jewish traditions and teachings, or even Gentiles calling themselves "messianic"?

Who started the Messianic Jewish movement and for whom was it started? I hear it all the time: "do not turn the Gentiles away back to churches, they too need to hear the truth". Obviously then, plenty of Gentiles seem to believe that Jews do indeed have the "corner on the truth," or at least a "sharper" corner than others - otherwise they, including you, would have happily remained in churches. Am I wrong or have the "oracles of G-d" indeed been given to the Jewish people - and does it not also include proper "Jewish" interpretation of these "oracles" by Jews themselves (Judicial blinding to Messiah of SOME Jews for the sake of Gentile salvation notwithstanding)?

James said...

Gene, you're making a very simple point overly complicated and you're tending to lean towards "absolutes" in your arguments. I'm not saying that Messianic Judaism doesn't possess a significant degree of truth, but rather, I'm saying that specifically, MJ/BE does not possess and probably cannot possess a 100% correct and flawless interpretation of Scripture or the will of God. This is true if, for no other reason, than we human beings are flawed and tend to mess up God's word and will in one way or another. We always have.

My "spider-sense" goes off every time I encounter a person or group that says they are 100% right all the time about everything and thus, everyone else is wrong. A very tiny subset of Jews and Gentiles in existence are being drawn towards Yeshua within a Hebraic/Jewish context, but even within that very small grouping, a high degree of variability exists. While there are some points on which we tend to agree, there are a large number of points where we don't. Can we say that one and only one group within that very tiny subset of those who profess faith in Yeshua/Jesus in a Hebraic/Jewish fashion are the keepers of 100% of the truth?

Gene Shlomovich said...

"you're tending to lean towards "absolutes" in your arguments."

"Can we say that one and only one group within that very tiny subset of those who profess faith in Yeshua/Jesus in a Hebraic/Jewish fashion are the keepers of 100% of the truth?"

James, MJs opposing One-Law arguments SPECIFICALLY (or what many MJs views as One-Law version of "Replacement Theology") is not the same as claiming that MJs believe that they hold 100% of ALL truth out there on any subject. To lay this at the feet of Messianic Jews, to say claim they view themselves as absolutely correct in all things is in itself leaning toward "absolutes."

James said...

But that's all I'm saying. I expect there to be disagreements in perception and understanding among all groups involved in these discussions. If I'm "laying this at the feet" of MJ/BE, it's only because of the visibility (and sometimes the highly vocal nature) of this portion of the MJ/Hebraic movement. Certainly Two-House and One Law can also get on their high horses and behave as if they have the inside track on what the Bible "really" says.

Naturally, each specific faith group adheres to their particular perspective on things and there is where the disagreements lie. I'm trying to say, whether we all like to acknowledge it or not, that a certain amount of uncertainty is introduced in our opinions just because we're human beings, and it's possible, no matter how zealously we hold to our positions, that sometimes, we can be wrong.

It's my own heartfelt belief that, when he returns, Yeshua will straighten us all out and show us where we did well, and frankly, where we messed up. On the one hand, I'm not looking forward to finding out how bad I fell on my face, but on the other hand, it'll be good when we can all turn to him and know all of his truth as in Jeremiah 31:34 and Hebrews 8:11.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"MJ/BE, it's only because of the visibility (and sometimes the highly vocal nature) of this portion of the MJ/Hebraic movement"

James, frankly and for the record, I do not consider any other entity as part of the "MJ/Hebraic" movement other than what you referred to as "MJ/BE." Groups of disaffected Gentiles that have left the movement to form their own alternative "messianic" One Law or Two House groups are not Messianic Judaism (and folks like Dan Benzvi would agree with that and do not call themselves "Judaism") - and we, MJs, would like to make nomenclature used today to actually conform to the reality on the ground.

The variations within various streams of Jewish Messianic Judaism you referred to mostly hinge on DEGREE of acceptance of rabbinic practice (vs that of Evangelical practices which most MJs - especially the MJAA crowd - still sadly retain to a high degree) and view of Torah as still binding since coming of Messiah (or not). ALL Messianic Judaism, however, is by its very nature "bilateral", testified to by all the empirical facts if not by widely accepted verbal definitions - by meeting separately, we exist distinct from but at the same time in parallel to Christianity.

James said...

And thereby hangs the tale.

I do agree that most "Hebraic" groups are not a Judaism in any sense and I certainly don't claim to belong to a Judaism. I'm just a plain, old Heinz 57 sauce, mutt Gentile.

However, regardless of what you base your position on, and even if you believe it is the closest to the truth of Messiah anyone can get, it still is an "educated opinion". It works for you, but others can and will disagree, at least about some of the details of your understanding (as we've seen all too frequently in the blogosphere).

I have no desire to intrude on your worship practice, but I'm still free to disagree with some of your opinions, including BE, which seems to be more of a sociological result of different people groups and religious traditions rather than specific intent on the part of God, Messiah, and the Apostles from what I can see.

Oh, and for the record, I don't feel inferior because I'm not Jewish, I just feel different. I don't want to be a Jew, I just want to be accepted at the same table as the rest of the people who worship the Messiah. One God, One Shepherd, One Flock. If we can all agree on that last little part, unity in the Messiah has a chance.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"I just want to be accepted at the same table as the rest of the people who worship the Messiah."

James, you could have remained within your previous Sunday church for that - MJs accept Christians as our fellow brothers and sisters!

"One God, One Shepherd, One Flock. If we can all agree on that last little part, unity in the Messiah has a chance."

Indeed, One Flock - different folds.

James said...

Actually, as I understand BE, it's really two tables: one located in the MJ/BE synagogue and the other in the Christian church. Even Peter (Acts 10) had table fellowship with Gentile God-fearers who subsequently came to accept the Spirit (though he was criticized for this in Acts 11).

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Actually, as I understand BE, it's really two tables: one located in the MJ/BE synagogue and the other in the Christian church."

James, if that's how BE is to be defined, that you yourself can be classed as practicing it (or rather your version of it): your one table is at your OL Messianic synagogue (your home without ham) and the other is in the Christian church (to which you do not want to return).

"Even Peter (Acts 10) had table fellowship with Gentile God-fearers..."

Ah, Peter. OK, let's see. First of all, notice what Peter was accused of by Paul in Galatians 2:14: he was accused of Judaizing the Gentiles (which is what One-Law has been doing):

"How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"

Peter, Judaizing Gentiles, what??? Here's what I think where Peter went wrong - instead of letting Gentiles live as Gentiles (but meet with them for fellowship on occasion), he listened to Judaizers who wanted to integrate Gentiles into Judaism, bring them into synagogue/Temple and fully make them part of Israel (make them into Jews).

Judah Gabriel Himango said...

It's amusing that One Law groups can simultaneously be accused of both "forcing gentiles to follow Jewish customs" and, as Derek Leman put it, "silly, self-defined Torah observance" devoid of proper Jewish tradition and custom.

Truth is: no one's forcing anyone in One Law congregations. And more often than not, we're Sola Scriptura, which usually omits a good deal of Jewish tradition, for better or worse.

There are varying levels of observance in our congregations. There is no forcing or shaming. We encourage people to take on God's commandments -- we do not force people, we do not claim it is required for salvation. Simply, we believe God's commandments are good instruction for all his people, Jews and gentiles.

Gene, I think if you came and saw our congregations and met the people and got to know us, you wouldn't be so vehemently opposed to us. :-)

James said...

Judah! Glad you could join the party.

Actually, in my experience, there is an extreme amount of variability in One Law congregations. While I agree that many are well-intended and sincere in their desire and practice of worshiping God, some can be pretty "unusual" in their theology and preach ideas that are found no where in the Bible.

I thought presenting the "opposite side of the coin" would be beneficial for the folks I worship with and the larger Messianic/One Law community in my local area, so I wrote Who or What Do We Worship?. No one, and I mean no one, is immune from blurring the lines distinguishing worshiping God and worshiping the practices we use to worship God...in other words, our "religion". It's a tremendous problem in some One Law congregations, but can happen anywhere, including the Church and the Synagogue (Messianic or otherwise).

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Gene, I think if you came and saw our congregations and met the people and got to know us, you wouldn't be so vehemently opposed to us. :-)"

Judah, I am sure I'd get a long with many OLs and TWs on a personal level just fine, just not theologically or ideologically.

Dan Benzvi said...

I have never attended another OL congregation. But I attended many many MJ congregations. Not once have I seen a conformity to other MJ congregations or to a certain defined teachings, they all vary. Some will not let non-Jews to have Alia LaTora, others do not have a problem with the issue.

Gene,

Keep throwing mud on the wall, maybe something will stick....Don't forget to wipe your own nose first, will you?

James said...

I was wondering how much variability there existed in MJ congregations. I thought there must be at least some, but wasn't sure how much. Thanks for confirming it, Dan.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"I was wondering how much variability there existed in MJ congregations."

The variability in many MJ congregations is primarily that of "Judaism content" vs "Evangelical Charismatic Christianity" content (with usually much more of the latter). The great variability itself is a sign of prevailing immaturity (picking and choosing Jewish traditions) and rampant identity confusion in the movement.

Some of us, however, are working to shape a mature, sane "messianic" Judaism that is in continuity with the rest of Israel and one that, of course, recognizes her Messiah (while is recognizably Judaism).

James said...

Gene, to one degree or another, we all can be guilty of "picking and choosing" our traditions and what we believe defines our faith. The Orthodox choose to observe the Sabbath by not driving but the Reform have no problem here. The Orthodox choose to observe a prayer life in the synagogue by separating men and women, but the Conservatives don't separate couples in prayer. I'm sure there are differences in the levels of being observant between Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, and Chassidic communities, but each of these groups is doing what they believe is right for themselves in their worship of God.

Sure, everything I've mentioned falls within the bounds of legitimate Judaism, but I know that criticism exists between these groups, too. That's human nature. While you can define a level of Jewish observance within your synagogue that reflects your worship of God, your observance is no more or less "sane" than those Messianic Jewish communities who choose to behave in an "Evangelical Charismatic Christianity" fashion. You are free to criticize them and to disagree with them, but they are doing what they feel is right and not hurting you or anyone else in the slightest (unless you choose to believe their behavior somehow damages you).

It's part of what I was trying to say in this blog about judgmentalism and also part of what I've been trying to say about (at least in terms of Gentile worship) there being acceptable varability in methods of worship. In this case, the important question to ask is, "what does God think about all this?"

Gene Shomovich said...

"I'm sure there are differences in the levels of being observant between Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, and Chassidic communities, but each of these groups is doing what they believe is right for themselves in their worship of God."

The differences in customs between Orthodox communities are negligible. I can walk into any Orthodox synagogue and be able to follow services just fine. Personally, I do not view Reform and Conservative Judaisms as real Judaism - they are attempts by German Jewry (specifically) in mid 1800's to assimilate into the surrounding Protestant culture - a failed attempt as Jews later learned. Switching to Sunday worship, banning Hebrew from services, banning headwear, eating treif, calling their rabbis "reverends" - they tried everything to assimilate.

Conservative Judaism is itself a later reform of a Reform Judaism. Both of them are dying today, spiritually empty and highly secularized - getting old, bleeding members and shutting down. Yes, they are Jewish and some of them are even serious about their faith - but they are not Judaism of our forefathers.

Both of these movements are limited to the United States (apparently not very many liberal Jews are willing to brave foreign countries to spread their Judaism), while Orthodoxy is throughout.

James said...

Gene, not to put too fine a point on it, but you seem to be defining yourself (assuming your congregation or even the MJ/BE movement believes as you do) as a sect, separating yourself from larger Judaism and believing only your group has the corner market on what it is to be Jewish. (see Dan's blog and the second quote from Rabbi Boteach on my congregation's blog).

Gene Shlomovich said...

"separating yourself from larger Judaism and believing only your group has the corner market on what it is to be Jewish. "

James, I am not talking about myself or "my group" - I am talking about Judaism and historical development of Reform and Conservative movements vs that of traditional (Orthodox) Judaism. Also, I am not talking about BEING Jewish, I am talking about a Jewish view of Torah and halakha and Jewish assimilation.

James said...

Then Gene, the people you probably need to talk to are an Orthodox, a Conservative Rabbi, and a Reform Rabbi. Let them know who you are and the form of Judaism you represent, and have this discussion with them.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Let them know who you are and the form of Judaism you represent, and have this discussion with them."

Well, funny that you bring it up. I had a nice talk long talk with Orthodox Jews for Jesus at the UMJC conference just last week. It was a lot of fun, and we had so much in common. We davened and did havdalah together in their suite - since my practice is orthoprax and hasidic (I come from hasidic heritage), I felt right at home. The Judaism I represent is traditional and hasidic Judaism WITH Messiah.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Orthodox Jews for Jesus"

Make it Jews for Judaism:) He he!

James said...

If an Orthodox Rabbi was at a conference of the Union for Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC), he was a progressive Rabbi indeed. The impression I get from my local Chabad and Reform Rabbis is that they wouldn't give anyone in the Messianic world the time of day (though I'm sure they'd be very polite about it).

I'm glad that you connected with an Orthodox Rabbi at the UMJC conference, but if he chose to be there, he knew where he was going and who he'd be talking to. I'm not sure that universally, all Orthodox Rabbis everywhere would have been comfortable with the experience.

I get the distinct impression that you are trying to impress the Gentile believing world with your level of Jewish observance, but to what end?

Each person, Jew or Gentile, negotiates his or her relationship with God as we travel with Him on the journey of our lives. No two people's walks are the same for a wide variety of reasons. I'm not the Acme Judgment Company and I can't, in absolute terms, criticize another person's walk of faith because it's not identical to mine. We can only facilitate people into faith (I was going to say "bring" people to faith, but only God can do that) if we are open to them, not if we're busy slamming doors in their faces because they aren't "observant enough" for us.

The rabbinic Orthodox Rabbi at the conference was accepting of you as a Messianic Jew. Can you not extend the same grace and courtesy to other Jews who are not identical to you? If Yeshua's grace was as limited as yours, could anyone, particularly the Gentiles, be saved?

Gene Shlomovich said...

Also, traditional Judaism DOES allow for great variability - there are many groups under the umbrella called "Orthodox Judaism." (which was the ONLY Judaism until mid 1800's when Reform came along in Germany) Liturgy may be sung differently, order of service may be somewhat different, and each traditional group has their own distinct customs and dress. There are also differences in interpretations of halakha and rulings by the current leaderships of a particular community. And yet, what unites them all is focus on Torah and its divine revelation, intense prayer and study, expectation of Messiah and Messianic age, personal holiness, and resistance to secularization and assimilation - things pretty much missing from Reform and most of its derivatives.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"I get the distinct impression that you are trying to impress the Gentile believing world with your level of Jewish observance, but to what end? "

Ha? I am not trying to impress ANYONE with anything, much less anyone among the Gentiles. How in the world did you get this "distinct impression"? Did I outline to you the things I "do" or not "do"?

"Can you not extend the same grace and courtesy to other Jews who are not identical to you? If Yeshua's grace was as limited as yours, could anyone, particularly the Gentiles, be saved?"

Read my previous comment above about variability in Judaism. Also, me giving grace and courtesy (I welcome all Jews and Gentiles as they are) is NOT the same thing as me approving of a particular movement, theology or practice.

James said...

I'm not trying to defend Reform Judaism or any other group. All I'm trying to say is that each of us has our own relationship with God and it can be expressed in different ways. You have been very vocal that Gentiles must express our faith in God differently than Jews. That some Jews express their faith in God and in the Messiah differently from you doesn't make them bad Jews or non-Jewish, it just makes them different.

Moses lead millions of people through the wilderness for forty years, talked to God face to face, and yet is still considered to be the most humble of men. We should all seek to achieve his level of humbleness.

James said...

Read my previous comment above about variability in Judaism. Also, me giving grace and courtesy (I welcome all Jews and Gentiles as they are) is NOT the same thing as me approving of a particular movement, theology or practice.

Um...variability in Orthodox Judaism, so your scope is limited. So, you would welcome a Jew into your community who was Messianic and had the level of observance as say, a Reform Jew and not criticize him? If true, that would be a good thing.

Gene, we could do this all day long and you would continue to defend your position and your beliefs and insist that you are not the least bit biased. It's not the Orthodox point of view I'm concerned about, or the Reform point of view or the Baptist point of view, or any other faith group's point of view that particularly matters to me...it's the expectations of God and expressing his mercy and grace in life.

When I'm alone in prayer and connecting with God or when I'm trying to make a decision about something and am consulting God, this is what's important...not that I'm important, but how my life lines up with His wishes is the point for me. If we all had such concerns about the planks in our own eyes, we might be less worried about the splinters in the eyes of others.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"If we all had such concerns about the planks in our own eyes, we might be less worried about the splinters in the eyes of others."

James, at the end of the day we can be paralyzed by supposed piousness of relativity, acceptance of everyone regardless of their actions and beliefs, and whatever the impact these things have on the Body, we can all be non-judgmental to a fault, but the fact remains is that we have real communities to run and we have to give answers to real problems affecting real people. These issues will not go away if we all just sing "Kumbaya." Accepting people is one thing, but accepting of everything being done and taught "in love" was not the solution we see in the NT. Instead, we have book after book comforting influences and teachings which were seen as detrimental to the Body. This is what it's all about today.

James said...

I'm not talking about loosening our moral constraints or ignoring the Word of God to the point that we make no distinctions at all. I'm only talking about not being so narrow in our view that we don't realize we ourselves are not the final arbiters of truth. Only God is. Be discerning. Just don't believe that any one man or group has all the answers.