Tuesday, July 6, 2010

Disciples Among the Nations

You ignore the fact that Messianic Judaism was started as a movement for Jewish people to express life and faith in Yeshua. Those who are not Jewish and who wish to be part of Messianic Judaism should be here for a Jewish movement to come alongside, not to say, "Hey, Messianic Judaism belongs to us now, so move over Jews."

I wish you would either rejoice in your non-Jewish identity and find your place in the church or realize that your participation in MJ (assuming your congregation is actually Jewish, which I do not think is a given) is about supporting God's work amongst the people of Israel.

These quotes from comments made on Judah Gabriel's Weekly Bracha late last month were in response to some statements I'd made in an article I wrote for my congregation called Does God Love Gentiles, Too? I've been assured by various Messianic Jewish commentators that indeed, God does love me, but that I need to restrict my role as a worshiper of the Jewish Messiah to the Christian church in order not to misappropriate any of the practices or behaviors that have been given to the Jewish people.

That conversation was the final prompt (though not the actual beginning of this quest) to start this blog and examine all of the assumptions I had managed to collect over the past decade or so, about my relationship with God, with the Jewish Messiah, with Jewish people, and in the larger body of believers in the world. Who am I in Christ/Messiah? I found I wasn't really sure anymore. Yes, of course there are many groups who are more than glad to tell me who I am and what I should do and where I should go (in one way or another), but too many people robotically respond to a human authority and allow that authority to define their roles and relationships. Missing, at least from my perspective, from the many conversations was the actual desire of God. What does God really want Gentiles of faith to do in response to Him? What is the proper role of a Gentile in relationship to the Messiah of the Jewish people? More specifically, why did Yeshua/Jesus really come?

That might seem like a ridiculous or even an insane question, but consider the quote I inserted at the top of this blog article.
Messianic Judaism was started as a movement for Jewish people to express life and faith in Yeshua.
Taken all by itself, this phrase seems to say that the Messiah came for the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. There's a certain amount of support to that notion.
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
-Matthew 15:21-28
Neither Yeshua nor his disciples were particularly gracious to the Canaanite woman. Yeshua said I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel and certainly this woman didn't quality. Neither does anyone else who isn't Jewish. If the narrative started and ended there, and if Gentiles were expected to have some sort of relationship with the God who made the world, it would have to be accomplished through some other mechanism or process besides the Messiah. End of story.

On the other hand, there's this:
“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me – just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life – only to take it up again”. -John 10:14-17
Here we have Yeshua acknowledging that the Gentiles will also know him, listen to his voice, and follow him. The statement also seems to say that the death the Messiah suffered was on behalf of Gentiles as well as the lost sheep of Israel. But what now?
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." -Matthew 28:16-20
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. In other words, Yeshua seems to be directing his Jewish disciples to make disciples of all nations, that is, all non-Jewish people, and to teach the new, Gentile disciples everything Yeshua taught his own Jewish disciples. Everything? Gentile disciples? This must have seemed like a radical thought to Yeshua's audience.

A few years back, I attended something called the Wooden Podium conference hosted by First Fruits of Zion (FFOZ) (the particular event I attended was held in Phoenix, Arizona). At that event, D. Thomas Lancaster defined a disciple as a student who learns by imitation. That is, a disciple attaches himself (or herself) to a Master and learns the Master's teachings by imitating everything the Master says and does, basically modeling the Master's lifestyle. In the case of a disciple of Yeshua, the person would attempt to model their actions and even their thoughts on their observations of Yeshua as well as his spoken teachings. The Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us as a human being becomes the ultimate role model and the perfect Rabbi to (at least) the first century Jewish world, hungry for the true meaning of the Torah and a pure relationship with God.

Connecting the Matthew 28 mandate with Lancaster's definition of "disciple", what Yeshua seems to be saying is that the Jewish disciples were to become masters of Gentile disciples and to model for the Gentiles all of the lessons that Yeshua taught and modeled. OK, let me get this straight. If you follow the logic of the statement, Jewish disciples who had modeled themselves on the Jewish Messiah were to act as models for their own Gentile disciples. That means, for the Gentiles to learn properly, they'd have to not only listen to what they were taught about Yeshua but imitate the actions of their Jewish Masters and teachers. Imitate?

I may be overstating the point, but think about it. If a bunch of first century Gentiles who had just left pagan worship started imitating their first century Jewish mentors who are teaching them to act our their faith in the Jewish Messiah, what would happen? Does it make sense? Let me make an illustration from my own experience.

I came to faith in Yeshua in my 40s. That, in and of itself, probably makes at least some of you reading this blog consider me as "lesser", especially those of you who have been developing a relationship with the Messiah since childhood or at least your teens (I was seen that way by some Christians in my original church experience). Nevertheless, I came to faith. As circumstances (which I believe were constructed by God) would have it, my family and I began worshipping at a Nazarene church in my community. I'd been in church before and, as a young teen, my parents had me attend a Lutheran church with them, but I never attended as a believer. I never had faith as a teen or young adult. No one explained to me, as a youngster, the "relationship" stuff. No one bothered to ask if I believed.

So here I am, a guy in his early 40s with his wife and kids in church, scared to death and as awkward as a gymnast with broken legs. What was I supposed to do here? What was I supposed to say? Half of what everyone talked about was in "Christianese" so I could barely understand the concepts being discussed in Bible class and, if I dared to ask, people would look at me as if I had just turned bright orange with purple polka dots. What to do?

What does anyone do in an unfamiliar circumstance when they're trying to fit in? You do what everyone else around you is doing until you figure things out for yourself. In other words, you imitate your role models, at least until you are able to grasp your environment and can act independently in an appropriate manner. I suppose that could be one way to consider being a disciple, except that it's not a formalized relationship and those you are imitating may not be aware that they're being used as role models.

Can we apply the idea of a Master/Disciple relationship between say, Peter and Cornelius (Acts 10)?

While you may consider the answers to these questions to be elementary, I am deliberately taking my steps in this journey slowly and asking what many of you might consider questions with obvious answers. I started this blog, among other reasons, because the nature and character of the relationship between modern believing Jews and Gentiles has been brought into question. It has been suggested, based on the concept of "Bilateral Ecclesiology", that Jews and Gentiles who consider themselves followers of Yeshua, must remain separate from each other because, in essense, relative to their faith and their roles, Jews and Gentiles are Apples and Oranges. We can see this in the first century world of the disciples, at least somewhat.

Recall that it wasn't until about 15 years after the events recorded at the end of Matthew 28 that Peter received his rooftop vision in Acts 10. Up until that point, there's not much of a record of a lot of Gentiles being discipled by the twelve who had followed Yeshua. There's a good reason for that. Really acting out the lived experience of a Jewish person discipling a Gentile was rather foreign. At that point in history, in Roman occupied Israel, for a Jew, even going into a Gentile home would make the Jew "unclean". God had to inject a significant prompt into Peter's life to get him to realize that nothing bad would happen to him if he entered the home of Cornelius and in fact, it was what God wanted Peter to do. Peter was still trying to figure out what the vision meant when the messengers from Cornelius arrived. I wish I could have been there to watch the realization come over Peter's face as he understood the reality of Yeshua's words to make disciples of "all nations". No wonder he and other Jewish believers were so amazed at this:
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
-Acts 10:44-48
Peter received plenty of heat from some other Jewish believers when they heard he had gone into the home of a Gentile and he ended up having to explain what happened to them (see Acts 11). A Jew going into a Gentile's home was obviously a very rare and generally undesirable event for Jews at that point in time. The idea that Gentiles could really receive the Holy Spirit, just as the Jews had, was completely revolutionary. It must have been very difficult for all of the Jewish believers to accept. Who had ever heard of a Gentile having a relationship with the One, True God unless he or she had converted to Judaism? Fortunately, the believing Jews Peter spoke with accepted his experience:
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." -Acts 11:18
We might be left to wonder what Peter and Cornelius, or any Jewish teacher and Gentile disciple, had to talk about, but then we encounter the Jerusalem letter in Acts 15. The letter seems to define the limits of what was expected of the Gentile believers in Yeshua (besides faith in Yeshua himself, of course). Both here and in Galatians, we see that some group is going out representing the Jewish Messianic authority and attempting to convince the new Gentile believers that they must become circumcised (convert to Judaism) in order to worship the Messiah and to worship God. As such, they would take on board the full yoke of Torah, which some commentators also believe means all of the Oral Torah, traditions, and halacha.

There's a difference of opinion as to how to understand the Jerusalem letter, which was supposed to counter this problem, but let's assume for now that we can take the letter on face value and not connect it to any other portion of the larger Biblical context. Let's say we can take the content of the letter as the length, breadth, and depth of a Gentile's responsibility to God as a believer in Yeshua. This may or may not be true, but I'll reserve that discussion for a different time. Of course, it might fly in the face of the Matthew 28 statement of Yeshua directing the Jewish disciples to teach the Gentile disciples everything Yeshua taught the Jews, but I suppose the Gentiles could learn everything Yeshua taught but only respond to some small subset of those behaviors as outlined in the Jerusalem letter.

Who were the "judaizers" stirring up these issues in Acts and Galatians? I've seen comments in connection with recent MJ/BE blogs I've read stating that they were Gentile believers who basically went overboard in their devotion to Judaism (if not the Messiah) and tried to convince other Gentiles to "become Jewish". This sort of behavior can sometimes be seen in certain MJ/OL groups where Gentiles appear to fall in love with Judaism but not so much with Yeshua. I've heard a number Gentile believers refer to themselves as "Spiritual Jews", which is probably nuts. It's very easy for some people to get very confused about their identity and to assume that if they're doing "Jewish stuff" that, on some level, it makes them Jewish. Some of these folks become quite upset if you say "Jesus" and not "Yeshua", or if a fellow Gentile believer chooses to go to a Sunday-keeping church, or if a fellow Gentile believer in MJ/OL doesn't feel convicted to wear a tallit during prayer or worship. In those cases, I can see the Jewish people in Messianic Judaism (or in any Judaism) becoming somewhat put out. These latter-day Gentile "judaizers" certainly stir up the pot, so to speak.

On the other hand, what if at least some of the first century "judaizers" were Jewish believers who just could not make the conceptual leap that Gentiles were able to enter into a community of faith in the Jewish Messiah? After all, the Jewish people were virtually the only people group on Earth who had worshipped the One God, kept the Shabbat, and experienced God for thousands upon thousands of years. Who were these “Gentile-come-latelies” who not only are receiving Jews into their homes, but professing a faith in the Jewish Messiah without converting to Judaism? There are different interpretations of these events, including some traditionally Christian thoughts, but it does illustrate that the Jewish and Gentile believers didn't form a fused identity in the first century Church/Messianic Community and they remained two distinct people groups linked by a common faith in one Messiah and one God.

It begs the question though, that if Jews remained Jews and Gentiles remained Gentiles in the first century community of Messianic faith, just how did discipleship work, particularly within the context of active worship? I mentioned in my earlier personal disclosure about my first church experience as a believer. Of course, for me to imitate the more experienced Christians around me, I had to be in the same church at the same time as they were. Can we believe that Gentiles attended the same worship services as their Jewish mentors? If they did, was that deliberately intended by God to be only a stepping stone experience leading eventually to separate worship venues for Jews and Gentiles, or was the original Messianic worship model somehow distorted and lost by human beings failing to perceive and uphold God's purpose? A topic for my next blog.

21 comments:

Gene Shlomovich said...

James, your assumption, of course, is that the "Churches of the Gentiles" mentioned in the Bible in Romans 16:4 (which is in itself is but one indication that Gentiles believers met in their OWN distinct communities) worshiped and lived according to Torah and Jewish traditions and that Jewish believers left behind their synagogues where they already worshiped along side their fellow Jews and joined their newly found Gentile brethren in new multinational communities, or "Churches of the Gentiles".

I think it's a pure speculation, not supported either by scripture or historical evidence. What we see, however, is that Jewish followers of Messiah remained in their own synagogues among their own people / went to the Temple (if they lived in the Land), etc. After Peter's vision, the Jewish disciples indeed started fellowshipping with Gentile believers by meeting with them in their homes / or by breaking bread with them in some other setting (I am sure, kosher bread, but only for the sake of Torah observant Jews - not Gentiles).

Some of the first Gentile believers were G-d fearers who indeed attended synagogues even before their coming to faith in Yeshua. One should research what role did G-d fearers play in first century Judaism and what the view of them in the traditional Judaism. Not being full converts to Judaism, G-d fearers did not put themselves under the yoke of Torah at all, but simply observed certain Jewish things (perhaps holy days) and prayed to the Jewish G-d.

However, as more Gentiles were being reached with the Good News, many of these new Gentile believers did not come from the ranks of G-d fearers. Many were in areas devoid of Jews (especially after Jews were kicked out from the Roman Empire). There's no historical indication that they were "Torah observant" or viewed themselves equally obligated to Torah (that's a Judaizing heresy that Shaul so strongly confronted in Galatians and disciples in Acts 15).

zion/jeruz said...

James,

I agree about the part when it comes to imitating the Master, seems clear.

I notice you haven't spoken much on the sojourner joining Israel, what happens when a gentile joins Israel? Are they considered a native born? Are they to obey the Torah? Etc. Just wanting to add that into the mix. Of course you will get the absurd responses where someone will try to slam "Ritual Conversion" anachronistically into the concept of the sojourner, just brush over that nonsense, lol.

Gene Shlomovich said...

James, it's your blog and your spiritual journey, but if I may note something: your posts seem to be about you starting with the assumption of 'One Law' being true (instead of "discarding all assumptions" as you intended to do), and working backwards to support that conclusion (which seems to be already foregone in your mind).

If I may suggest, discard your "One Law" assumption (as hard as it may be to put away own bias), and instead try exploring those scriptures which your "opponents" say indicate that Gentiles are NOT under obligation to Mosaic Torah nor are they expected by G-d to worship as Jews (i.e. celebrate Shabbats or the Jewish holy days, share kosher meals, and all the standard things any Jewish people do in their synagogues). That should make it much more interesting.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Of course you will get the absurd responses where someone will try to slam "Ritual Conversion" anachronistically"

Your anti-Judaism is showing, cover it up, Jeruz.

James said...

Thanks for your detailed reply Gene, however I think you're making some assumptions about my statements. I have reached few if any conclusions about what Gentiles did and didn't do and about where Gentiles did and didn't meet for worship. I never said that the Gentiles took on the full yoke of Torah, I've only raised the question about how all this was enacted.

As I've tried to emphasize, I'm slowing this process way down and I'm not anxious to jump from A to Z. I hadn't even considered Romans 16 at this point, so you're assuming that about me.

I'm only trying to discover what the Bible does seem to say about it the first century Jews and Gentiles and what it means for us all today. I'm not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat and I don't have to reach any conclusions in a giant hurry. As I hope you've realized, I'm trying to be as measured and deliberate as I can be without assuming one particular theological perspective or another.

I know you've already come to your own conclusions for yourself but try to understand that I'm re-examining my own understanding as honestly as I can.

James said...

Gene, I don't believe that I've held the assumption of "One Law". In my discussion of the Acts 15 letter, I've reached no conclusions about the limits of Gentile observance vs Jewish observance. In fact, I feel like I'm bending over backwards to avoid "One Law". On the other hand, I haven't dismissed it out of hand either. I continue to look at the options. I haven't arrived at a destination, yet. Nor to I promise to arrive at the conclusions that will agree with everyone else. I just don't know yet.

James said...

Jeruz, I haven't really been considering the sojourner or alien among Israel at this point. I suppose a great deal hinges on what we believe the coming of Yeshua did or didn't do to offer Gentiles a change of status relative to God. As I told Gene, I don't know what that means. It's why I'm searching.

Each Judeo/Christian (if I can be allowed to use the term) tradition has their own interpretation of what Yeshua's birth, life, death, and resurrection did or didn't change. I'd rather not assume that one tradition's interpretation is correct vs another's at this point. Does the Bible say Yeshua changed anything relative to Gentiles, and if so, what?

Zion/Jeruz said...

**"Your anti-Judaism is showing, cover it up, Jeruz."**

Gene,

Just because I don't think Judaism is infallible, does not mean I am anti-Judaism, the same goes with Christianity, and its errors, but I am not against Christianity.

But you seem to think Judaism is infallible, which speaks volumes to me.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Just because I don't think Judaism is infallible, does not mean I am anti-Judaism."

Jeruz, you made a snide remark about the supposed anachronistic nature of "ritual conversions" within Judaism, but what do you think Gentiles getting "circumcised according to custom of Moses", if not a conversion procedure by itself? You imagine that conversions were totally informal for the converts to Judaism (especially males)?

You can say that even baptism today is an anachronistic ritual, since even those who practiced in the first century, John the Baptist or even Yeshua, didn't take it from the scriptures - it was really never specified in the Bible as a procedure for any kind of spiritual and PUBLIC conversion (but rather to remove physical defilement / bodily pollution) in the same sense it is today. And yet, here we have Yeshua instructing his disciples to be baptized. Unless of course one realized that this was a standard practice of Judaism accepted by Yeshua himself to indicate a new birth/renewal. (BTW, Jews even today baptize/mikvah their converts - anachronistically and non-bibically as you may claim).

Zion/Jeruz said...

**"Jeruz, you made a snide remark about the supposed anachronistic nature of "ritual conversions" within Judaism, but what do you think Gentiles getting "circumcised according to custom of Moses", if not a conversion procedure by itself? You imagine that conversions were totally informal for the converts to Judaism (especially males)?"**

I don't think a simple reading of Torah can suffice the "ritual conversion" specifics today, sorry. And the idea that one was saved by circumcision according to custom of Moses cannot be taught correctly from scripture, or the apostles would not have opposed it.

**"You can say that even baptism today is an anachronistic ritual, since even those who practiced in the first century, John the Baptist or even Yeshua, didn't take it from the scriptures - it was really never specified in the Bible as a procedure for any kind of spiritual and PUBLIC conversion (but rather to remove physical defilement / bodily pollution) in the same sense it is today. And yet, here we have Yeshua instructing his disciples to be baptized. Unless of course one realized that this was a standard practice of Judaism accepted by Yeshua himself to indicate a new birth/renewal. (BTW, Jews even today baptize/mikvah their converts - anachronistically and non-bibically as you may claim)."**

Baptism in the sense of Mikvah is found all through the bible, but the context of it being used as a token of faith your are correct... the same with circumcision, when it becomes either one(baptism or circumcision) the means for converting, then we have a problem, and this is the very idea of ritual conversion and the very idea of baptism in some denominations of Christianity. Simply put, it is done in error.

Gene Shomovich said...

"And the idea that one was saved by circumcision according to custom of Moses cannot be taught correctly from scripture, or the apostles would not have opposed it."

Jeruz, where did you read that apostles had to wrestle with the idea that circumcision itself "saved"? Even the Pharisaic party didn't claim that circumcision saved anyone! Instead, everyone among the Jewish believers knew that only the redepmtion Yeshua provided saved - especially if one stops to consider that it was the Jewish BELIEVERS in Yeshua who were insisting that Gentiles convert (get circumcised) to Judaism and observe Torah. The understanding among Jews at that time was that without having been circumcised (becoming converts to Judaism) the Gentiles COULDN'T EVEN COME to Yeshua the Jewish Messiah to obtain eternal life.

However, G-d showed through Peter and others, that he accepted Gentiles as Gentiles, sans conversion to Judaism or observance of the Mosaic Torah. Even though they were still birds, reptiles, creeping things (meaning they still were Gentiles - G-d didn't change who He himself made them to be), they were made CLEAN by G-d and allowed to partake in the spiritual blessings which belong to Israel (salvation found in Jewish Messiah and citizenship in the Kingdom of G-d).

Jewzilla said...

So the way I see it is like this:

There are a bunch of gentiles who are at various levels on a trek out of Christianity and into something different.

Messianic Jewish organizations don't have much to offer, this is clear as you have come to realize.

Also, "Two-House" Messianic organizations are usually proud of being different from Jews, and offer an alternative to the Messianic Jewish opposition to gentiles.

However, both organizations are rarely Torah observant, but are on various levels of observance, from a sola-sctriptura Karaite level (which exists usually among the latter group), to Reform/Conservative-like partial halakhic observance (which usually exists among the former group).
Thus, the leaders in each group aren't doing a job to get the people to where they are longing to be.

Neither would it be entirely appropriate for Orthodox observance level to be introduced to anyone. This is because "Orthodox" is simply a non-Jewish title attached to Judaism as a result of the Jewish peoples' long exile in lands they don't belong in. It usually is a name attached to institutionalized Judaism that exists as merely a system where everyone follows the status quo. Observant Judaism has only taken on this unfortunately form very recently in history, roughly within the last few hundred years. Room for halakhic reform and innovation, still based on the authority of the Sages mind you, doesn't exist in the set-in-stone forms of exile-Judaism of today.

But getting into that last part is futile to the vast majority of Messianic Jews and gentiles who don't believe in the authority of the Sages - so I'm already getting ahead of myself.
And because of this disbelief, they unknowingly transgress commands in Dt. 17 and other places. Rabi Yehoshua` was clearly aligned with Beith Hillel, while his rebukes to "the Pharisees" or "certain of the Pharisees" prove to be, in every case, rebukes from a Hillelite to Beith Shammai. Such rebukes are found even in the Talmudh.
And during the life of Rabi Yehoshua`, Beith Shammai was in power in the Sanhedrin and that is why Rabi Yehoshua` has to reluctantly advise to heed their rulings, since it would be transgression of plain written Torah commands not to. However, after Rabi Yehoshua`'s time, the view of Beith Hillel reigned supreme. Meaning for example, things like doctors being able to work on Shabath in order to heal would be permitted, as Rabi Yehoshua` argued in favor of the view of Beith Hillel. And thus, ever since, the accepted halakhic view in observant Judaism has been according to this view, rather than that of Beith Shammai.

Nonetheless, few Messianics are concerned with how to keep Torah, otherwise such study to find the truth would be commonplace. Instead the Talmudh and the Sages of authentic Torah-Judaism are spoken badly of without reason nor even decent understanding of them. The reason for this is undoubtedly anti-Judaistic indoctrination from the churches and Karaite doctrinal infiltration.

These are the obstacles facing the many types of Messianic people, mostly gentiles, from various backgrounds. Contrary to what some might think, I'm in favor of them making it all the way there! The reason I'm so harsh on commonplace Messianic theology, on either side of the aisle, is because I want people, specifically the returning gentiles, to get past the obstacles just mentioned.

Anyway, I'm now done writing my novel. Please, don't be afraid to read this through and respond with your thoughts, if you have any. I'm not looking to bash people for disagreeing with me. I will always respect somoene who will honestly take a look at my view without a preset bias.

Thanks,
Ahron

Mike said...

Ahron, i suppose im one of those on a trek out of Christianity. Not that it doesn't work well for many millions of people, but I just have problems with the theologies of all the churches I have been attending all my life.

I have not yet gotten "on board" with the various, um, denominations? - of the MJM. Just haven't been around the Messianic movement that long. I am most familiar from watching services from Baruch Hashems synagogue.

In the churches I attended, many times I used to ask about what Jesus actually did, things like the feasts, kosher eating, Torah stuff. I mean, they say WWJD.. well then.. what DID he do? I was treated like the subject wasn't even worth discussing. After all, the church has replaced the old law, and the people too. Bewildered, I began looking elsewhere. A few questions drive my actions.

1. When G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, to me it seems it contains instructions on how to structure a just society. From setting up a justice system, to acceptable behavior, how to worship etc. Sort of a "guide" for society.If you look at every other society, it is invariably plagued with a moral structure that deteriorates very badly. This includes the culture here in the states, where 90% of Americans claim to be Christians. Aren't the "Torah" questions important?

2. I see that at times, the Jews themselves didn't follow that guide well, but when they did, they were blessed. Wouldn't another people be blessed if they implemented that guide as best they could?

If we as non Jews do not have to keep the "law", but just a few basic principles, then we are left to our own devices. We end up with a society like ours, rife with porn, dope, rights for people doing sinful things. On Sunday, we plop down in a pew, say a prayer, shake a few hands, and are cleansed. See ya next Sunday bro. This just doesn't seem to be working out to well.

3. What was G-d thinking when he gave the Torah? - Pause.. waiting for lighting to strike.. - It was a guide how to live just, not how to be saved right? I can't see G-d making such a "guide", only to have it either tossed out completely (Which my Church tells me), or is subject to only a few (What BE tells me).

Those are a few of my thoughts. I am careful not to get too hung up on "theology", yet it is something that effects me greatly. Thoughts please..

Mike

Gene Shlomovich said...

Mike, don't make a mistake of trading mainstream Christianity for a One-Law Christianity (because it's certain NOT Judaism). In the end, I think you'll be worse off - there's much more lunacy and bad theology in the One-Law movement's churches than in most stable Christian churches. This includes a very distorted view of the future of Israel, of the very Torah they claim to uphold, of the applicability of Torah to Gentiles and Jews, and often a very negative, rabbi-hating view of mainstream Judaism.

If you choose to join a Messianic JEWISH congregation, joining it because you're disappointed with "Christianity" is a very bad idea as well. Rebound relationships rarely work out. Being in a solid, G-d-loving and people-loving non-messianic church is much better than say being in a messianic place with constant strife about how Gentiles should observe Torah, about this law or that law. Besides, most Messianic "Jewish" places differ very little from mainstream Christianity in both theology and practice (or makeup of congregants!), or education of their leaders (most of whom went to Christian Bible colleges).

"On Sunday, we plop down in a pew, say a prayer, shake a few hands, and are cleansed. See ya next Sunday bro. This just doesn't seem to be working out to well.On Sunday, we plop down in a pew, say a prayer, shake a few hands, and are cleansed. See ya next Sunday bro. This just doesn't seem to be working out to well.

You may just end up saying to each other "See ya next Shabbat" - people's devotion to G-d doesn't depend on them being in a church that bills itself "messianic".

Also, the Mosaic Torah G-d gave to Israel cannot be wholesale adopted to any other nation or situation. Everyone can learn from it, and Christianity and Western civilization has indeed adopted many of its MORAL precepts already, but many of it's instructions are specifically for the Jewish people, Jews living in the Land of Israel, and Jews worshiping in the Temple.

James said...

@Mike, I think you've crystalized why a number of Gentile Christians are leaving the church and seeking a worship venue that more closely connects to the Bible. I had a conversation last night with Russ (we live only about 20 miles from each other) and he was talking about how at least some Christian churches run "programs" but don't really connect to the foundations of faith, God, Messiah/Christ, and the Bible. People aren't looking for a "program". Paul didn't invent a "program" for Gentile believers.

I'm not sure Gentiles are looking for a Judaism (though some think they might be) but rather are looking for something more "back to basics". Since the Jewish people had a relationship with God thousands of years before most Gentiles, it's logical for Gentiles to look in that direction. However, as far as God's intent is concerned, is it the right direction?

I think what Gentiles in churches are really asking or should be asking is "What Did Jesus Change?" That is, did the Messiah come just to establish and maintain the status quo between Jews and Gentiles or did he come to add the sheep in the Gentile pen to his flock and for him to become our shepherd?

When Gentiles can find the answer to that question and act out our faith and worship in the intent and purpose of our Shepherd, we'll have found what he wants us to find...him.

Some Gentiles ask if Messianic Judaism is the only way for Jews and Gentiles to really connect to the Messiah. I asked the question on my congregation's blog Is Messianic Judaism a Judaism? I stopped short of providing an answer because I don't really know as yet (though I know that some people believe they have that answer). I'm still looking. The answer is coming.

Zion/Jeruz said...

"Jeruz, where did you read that apostles had to wrestle with the idea that circumcision itself "saved"? Even the Pharisaic party didn't claim that circumcision saved anyone! Instead, everyone among the Jewish believers knew that only the redepmtion Yeshua provided saved - especially if one stops to consider that it was the Jewish BELIEVERS in Yeshua who were insisting that Gentiles convert (get circumcised) to Judaism and observe Torah. The understanding among Jews at that time was that without having been circumcised (becoming converts to Judaism) the Gentiles COULDN'T EVEN COME to Yeshua the Jewish Messiah to obtain eternal life.

However, G-d showed through Peter and others, that he accepted Gentiles as Gentiles, sans conversion to Judaism or observance of the Mosaic Torah. Even though they were still birds, reptiles, creeping things (meaning they still were Gentiles - G-d didn't change who He himself made them to be), they were made CLEAN by G-d and allowed to partake in the spiritual blessings which belong to Israel (salvation found in Jewish Messiah and citizenship in the Kingdom of G-d)."

You obviously can't even understand what you are writing. In Acts 15:1 it states very clearly that the Pharisaic party was instructing gentiles that they could not be saved unless circumcised according to the customs of Moses, something of which the Apostles did not agree with and opposed in other cases.

Second, you brought up the fact that God showed Peter that He accepted Gentiles as they are, if you can't see why that is a problem that Peter even had to learn that, then you need to wake up.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Judaism is not infallible, it has errors just like Christianity, the sooner you come to that realization, the sooner you can also make peace with that.

Zion/Jeruz said...

Mike,

Keep going on the journey God is taking you, its obvious God is waking up all His people, next I believe there will be unity, at least I hope, but for now, continue in the path, learn the Torah, and find the Blessings in obedience.

You will run into certain MJ denominations such as those who hold to BE, who do not want gentiles to experience the blessings in Torah, but just follow God.

derek4messiah.wordpress.com said...

Wow, James, just saw this. When I said "MJ was started as a movement for Jewish people" I was talking about Messianic Judaism as it began in the 1970's. I wasn't talking about the Yeshua-movement which started after the resurrection of Yeshua.

You knew that, didn't you?

Derek Leman

James said...

I probably didn't, Derek. Conceptually, I think of the Messianic movement beginning in the 1st Century. For me, that's the model of what it's all supposed to look like. If we could somehow go back in time and see how Paul and Peter established these communities and how they progressed over time, we'd have a much better understanding of how to model similar communities today.

Judah Gabriel Himango said...

>> I think of the Messianic movement beginning the 1st Century

You're not alone in that thinking, James. Rabbi Joshua Brumbach of the Yinon blog has said something similar in the past. (I can dig up the link for anyone curious...)

James said...

The irony in all this for me is when I first became involved in MJ/OL back in the day, I thought what I had found was the template for the first century church/messianic community. I saw it (I guess rather naively) as a group of Jewish and Gentile believers in the Messiah worshipping together in peace.

No wonder I sometimes feel like I've collided with a brick wall at 100 mph.

If the template can't be found or established so that the community of faith actually behaves like we like each other (Yeshua said we were to even love each other), are we really living out our faith for His glory?