I never said that the Jewish people didn’t have the right to live in Jewish communities, Gene. Also the John 10 statement isn’t that clear as to the “implementation” of “two pens, one flock, one shepherd”, so there’s a bit of a wobble in the picture. If we acknowledge that there’s a Jewish pen and a Gentile pen, where does the “one flock” come in?
It’s sort of like saying that Chicago has a Jewish neighborhood and a Gentile neighborhood (although by definition, every neighborhood that isn’t Jewish is goy) but Chicago has one mayor who has “authority” over both neighborhoods within the city limits. Yeah, we all live in the same city, but if you’ve ever lived in a city with distinct “hoods” separated by nationality, ethnicity, and language, they might was well be on different planets. Even if you go to visit another neighborhood, you don’t belong and the “mayor” is an irrevelency in the equation (if you’ll pardon the mixed metaphor). In this sense, both neighborhoods (pens) being in one city (flock) really doesn’t matter, except they still both have to pay the same taxes, obey the same traffic laws, and so forth. There’s no “connection” between the two neighborhoods based solely on having the same mayor (shepherd).
It’s sort of like saying that Chicago has a Jewish neighborhood and a Gentile neighborhood (although by definition, every neighborhood that isn’t Jewish is goy) but Chicago has one mayor who has “authority” over both neighborhoods within the city limits. Yeah, we all live in the same city, but if you’ve ever lived in a city with distinct “hoods” separated by nationality, ethnicity, and language, they might was well be on different planets. Even if you go to visit another neighborhood, you don’t belong and the “mayor” is an irrevelency in the equation (if you’ll pardon the mixed metaphor). In this sense, both neighborhoods (pens) being in one city (flock) really doesn’t matter, except they still both have to pay the same taxes, obey the same traffic laws, and so forth. There’s no “connection” between the two neighborhoods based solely on having the same mayor (shepherd).
My response to Gene in Ovadia's blog post
Why Bilateral Ecclesiology Will Matter
Bilateral Ecclesiology and the Gentiles Series
This builds on conversations on Gene Shlomovich's blog as well as the blog I just quoted from and is an extension to my article from earlier today Bridging the Vastness. Before I continue though, I have to apologize to author Robert Eisenberg for "borrowing" the title of his book Boychiks in the Hood. I've never read his book (though I know where I can get my hands on a copy), but the title fit the metaphor I used above so well.
It's been just over 24 hours since this happened (forgive the length):
While, as Gene says, the Rebbetzin's response to me may simply be an Orthodox Jewish woman's being uncomfortable in a man's presence, particularly with her husband not being around, it did serve as a catalyst for a rather rapid trip down an uncomfortable path. Please bear with me.I had an interesting and somewhat related experience last night. The local Chabad Rabbi and his family had a “financial reversal” and were forced to move out of their home and relocate in a smaller space. My wife and I have been storing some of their belongings in our garage until their situation improves. After I came home from work last night, my daughter told me that the Rabbi’s wife was coming by to pick up some clothes for the kids.
When the Rebbetzin arrived, she seemed to have a hard time talking to me directly, answering to my daughter, even when I asked a question. I offered to help her take her things out to her car, but she said she’d be able to manage herself. I got the distinct impression she wasn’t comfortable with me at all, though we’d never met before.
After the Rebbetzin left, I asked my daughter if I had done anything that could have made the Rabbetzin uncomfortable. My daughter thought that she was just uncomfortable around Gentiles. She said that the Rabbi’s family have only Jewish friends and don’t associate with non-Jews socially. Later, I posed the same question to my wife, and she thought it was just because I was a guy and her husband hadn’t been present.
I say all this to emphasize that, while we talk a great deal about unity and brotherhood between Gentile and Jew, we tend to forget that we live in different worlds. While I’ve generally had no difficulty in casual relationships and even friendships with secular and liberal Jewish people over the years, I have tried to steer clear of the local Chabad because I realize that they’d be upset with my “Messianic” affiliation, if it became known.
I’ve continued to ponder the matter this morning and am coming to realize that the gulf between Gentiles and Jews, even in the Messianic movement, is a great deal wider than I’d previously considered. If indeed Jews in the Messianic movement, like religious Jews in general, need to have synagogues and communities to serve their unique needs, then Gentiles may very well not be able to “join in” without provoking a great deal of anxiety.
I'm not going to go through a series of lengthy quotes from the Aposotlic scriptures describing the struggle of trying to integrate formerly pagan Gentiles into discipleship and worship of the Jewish Messiah. We all know or should be aware of how Paul describes these events. None of the Jewish disciples could really figure out what to do with the Gentiles but, after all, in Matthew 28, Yeshua was clear that he wanted Gentiles to be made disciples as well. In Acts 10, Peter had a close encounter with a blanket full of treif and as a result, got to witness the fact that Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit in the same manner as believing Jews. Perhaps the Acts 15 letter was a response to the "Gentile crisis" and designed to at least temporarily put the Gentiles "on hold" with a limited set of requirements closely mirroring the Noahide Laws, while giving the Jerusalem Council some breathing room to develop a long-term plan (admittedly, I'm taking liberties with the text, but be patient with me on this).
Of course, the long-term plan, if it was ever considered, never was enacted and a long series of events resulted in a separation between the Gentile and Jewish believers and ultimately, thrust the now Goy Jesus into the hands of the Christians while most Jews came to "realize" that the Messiah was yet to come.
Question. Did the Goyim kick the Jews out of the "Messiah club" because Gentiles couldn't or didn't want to enter into a Jewish religion where their options for expression were limited due to their lack of being Jewish or did the Jews walk out because the Gentiles were overrunning the place? I know this sounds cynical, but in many ways, this is the same struggle we find ourselves in today between Gentiles and Jews in the Messianic movement.
Derek Leman has suggested that Gentile Christians can form Judaically-informed congregations and refrain from referring to themselves as "Messianic" to clear up the identity confusion, but this hasn't met with complete acceptance by other involved parties. There really isn't a "quick fix" to this problem, nor do I suspect there will be. Gene has said and I'm agreeing with him at this point, that the struggle won't end until the Messiah comes and straightens us all out.
But what do we do in the meantime?
Do we continue to attempt to build a bridge between our two separate and isolated "neighborhoods" or do we just agree to be separate and distinct and apart and wait. Well, we wouldn't be waiting exactly, we'd be doing what Christians and Jews have done for two-thousand years. We'd be trying to be polite neighbors (I'm not anticipating any pogroms in the United States at this point) but we wouldn't have much to do with each other, except in rare cases. We would live on the world but not in each other's worlds.
Oh, there'd be friendships and sometimes (heaven forbid) intermarriages and other wrinkles in the fabric. Some liberal Jews would associate with Christians and some Christians would want to hang out and learn from the Jews, but like I said...it would be rare...and no one would be threatened.
Based on the "neighborhood" metaphor, there isn't wholesale mixing of people and "practices" between "hoods". If you live in a predominantly white suburb, for example, chances are, you wouldn't be completely at ease in an inner city ghetto, a barrio, or even a predominantly Jewish neighborhood like Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Sure, you could visit. Maybe you have a favorite deli you like to visit and their pastrami on rye is out of this world, but it's just a visit. You don't live there. You don't fit in. It's not your "hood". People are different there.
Frankly, I'm amazed that Gentile participation in "Messianic Judaism" got this far. Of course, we can attribute it to the One Law movement which, up until fairly recently, was the predominant voice of "Messianic Judaism", but as Gene outlines in his blog, as Messianic Judaism progresses more toward a "Judaism" in practice, purpose, and lifestyle, it won't be a "Christian" neighborhood anymore...it will be Jewish.
That leaves something of a vacuum for the Gentiles who have previously felt welcome in a "One Law" style "Messianic Judaism". Sure, we can form our own "Hebraic" or "Judaically-informed" congregations, but they'll suffer from terminal isolation from both the Christian and Jewish worlds. Either people in One Law congregations will circle their wagons and create their forts or the people in them will return to the church where at least they'll be in a "Christian" neighborhood.
Some like me will discover that we no longer belong in the Christian neighborhood either. The concepts are too different and, after all, I have a Jewish wife who, when the last kid moves out, wants to kasher our kitchen, so my home will become continually more Jewish. No, I wouldn't fit in the Christian hood.
I already know many Gentile "Messianics" who choose to not affiliate with any congregation, usually due to the dangers in One Law of poor leadership bordering on cultism or some other unpleasant experience. They maintain quiet home fellowships or simply worship as individual families.
I've quoted from Matthew 8:11 more than once today but given my continual progression down this path that I've been walking for a little over a day now, I don't see how I'll ever be able to sit down at that table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob without feeling like a damn fool or at least like a fish in a bicycle factory.
Bilateral Ecclesiology proponents say that for the good of the Jewish people in the Jewish Messianic "neighborhoods", we Christians (my wife calls me a Christian) should stay in our neighborhoods, shop at our stores, eat at our restaurants, play in our parks, and worship in our congregations. We can be polite and even friendly neighbors. Nothing wrong with borrowing a cup of sugar on occasion. But the wall stays up. I'm again reminded of Robert Frost's very famous poem Mending Wall:
But at spring mending-time we find them there.Good fences make good neighbors.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go...
Afterword: I just told Gene on a blog comment that I don't so much write essays as process thoughts. That means my blog posts aren't final conclusions so much as periodic journal or diary entries. This is my entry for tonight. Tomorrow when I wake up, the world may look different. I'll let you know.
17 comments:
"Question. Did the Goyim kick the Jews out of the "Messiah club" because Gentiles couldn't or didn't want to enter into a Jewish religion where their options for expression were limited due to their lack of being Jewish or did the Jews walk out because the Gentiles were overrunning the place? I know this sounds cynical, but in many ways, this is the same struggle we find ourselves in today between Gentiles and Jews in the Messianic movement."
James, the situation 2K years ago was quite different, and frankly can't even be compared to the One-Law vs. Messianic Jewish Movement situation. As conditions for all Jewish people deteriorated in the Roman Empire (Acts 18:2 describes all Jews being expelled from Rome, including Jewish disciples) many Gentiles who have entered the faith began to look down on the Jews in general and began to view their own election as superseding that of Jews (necessitating Paul's stern warning against Gentile pride in Romans 11:18 - 22). It was certainly not about inclusion into Jewish communities and denying Jewish lifestyle and rituals to Gentiles.
Not long after Rome sacked Jerusalem, murdering enslaving and dispersing millions of Jewish people, which must have included the Jewish believers as well, the faith, later known as Christianity, had become an almost exclusive domain of the Gentiles. Gentile believers/Christians had come to view the sad state of the Jewish people at the time as evidence of G-d's having done away with Israel as His chosen nation and developed much theology around the idea that persists to this day. Pride won the day.
Incidentally and quite ironically, in reverse to the ideology of the One-Law proponents, the Gentiles to whom the Acts 15 ruling was directed actually rejoiced at not having to live according to Jewish standards:
"The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message." (Acts 15:30-31)
James,
Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians can be "ekklesia" together without necessarily being part of the same congregations. We should worship jointly, feast for Yeshua's sake jointly, participate in tikkun olam jointly, study jointly. But jointly. Not as an blob of amorphous Jew-Gentile, but as Jews and Gentiles, each confident in their own God-given identity, together. In your metaphor, the two neighborhoods should come together regularly to throw block parties, and keep those friendships.
Sorry Ovadia,
How can you pull this off logistically? Would they have tables for the Gentiles with hem sandwitches with signs :no Jews alowed? How about Gentiles who decide that the Shabbat regulations are not completely to their liking? Can they observe Yom Kippur together? Jewish believers fasting, some Gentile believers fasting, and other gentiles eating cheesburgers?
Jews and Gentiles should not fellowship, it goes against the grain of BE. MJ have two options, continue to engage in theological gymnastics to no avail, or presto, accept gentiles as equals, just like God ordained.
Dan wrote, "Jews and Gentiles should not fellowship, it goes against the grain of BE."
Dan, you really should check your facts before writing such damning words. They are simply untrue. BE REQUIRES that we fellowship with both Jews and Gentiles. In practice, we fellowship with Gentiles in our congregations (primarily inter-marrieds), Christians in our localities, and Church leaders. I go to the occasional Compline service or "Theological Pub" night. I teach primarily Jews, but also Gentiles. Dr. Rudolph is heavily involved in Jewish-Christian Dialogue. Dr. Kinzer has so many Christian connections that he has been accused of trying to make Messianic Judaism Catholic!
But, while those involvements are important to us, our dominant commitment is within Jewish community (our own and the larger one), to fellowship, study, and worship with fellow Jews.
Gene, you of course are quite accurate on your historical perspective of the development of the schism between Jews and Gentiles in the first century Messianic movement. However, I can imagine that the Gentiles of that day might have felt a tad out of place in a largely Jewish religion. While their faith in Yeshua was a delight, how did they manage the issues we are now facing? For that matter, how did the Jewish Messianics tolerate the power surge of former pagans entering into a worship of Abraham's God?
The historical "solution" seemed to be to develop a separate and distinct religion for the Gentiles that is only lightly based on the original Jewish template. After all, non-Messianic Jews today believe that Paul took the teachings of a "nice Jewish boy named Jesus" (years ago, that's how one Jewish woman described him to me) and used them to invent a new religion without any Torah requirements. It's more or less worked ever sense (at least for the Gentiles) apart from the pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, and supersessionalism.
The principle of Bilateral Ecclesiology (BI) only works to promote unity if the overall Christian church listens and accepts BI, which I don't see happening anytime soon, at least not on a large and probably not on a statistically significant scale (and if I'm wrong, I'd love to see the data). Oh, and like I just said at Ovadia's blog (and for the thousandth time) I am not advocating for some sort of universal, homogenized, pureed, whipped, mix of Jews and Gentiles in Messianic congregations with no distinctiveness allowed. I think there's plenty of room for uniquely Jewish congregations and uniquely Gentile congregations. I'm just not sure what the communication and fellowship conduits will look like.
Oh, by the way, upon reflection, I loved the detailed description of sheep pens and flocks you posted in the comments at Ovadia's blog. Yeshua certainly would have used a metaphor that his audience understood. The problem for many of us today including me, is that we've never been shepherds (I just like eating lamb). Something to ponder.
Ovadia, I agree with you in theory but Dan brings up some good logistical questions. How would all that work if each community be definition has different standards of observance? If, for instance, the Jews in MJ don't believe that Gentiles should keep even "kosher-style" (a la Leviticus 11), how could we share a meal? If we occasionally have worship together, do we use two different siddurim (or should Gentiles use hymnals)? How does Passover work when the non-Jews were never slaves in Egypt and were never redeemed from the house of bondage? As far as I can tell, Bilateral Ecclesiology doesn't presuppose any mutual events between the two groups, at least not ones that include ritual and worship.
Dr. Kinbar, having read Dr. Kinzer's book, I don't recall it addressing fellowship with Gentiles within Messianic Jewish congregations, even relative to intermarried couples or non-Jews being able to attend Messianic Jewish classes. Frankly, I'd love to attend a "Talmud for dummies" class, but depending on how "radical" the position of BI is in the Messianic community, would that even be acceptable?
Also, when you speak of "Jewish-Christian dialogue", I understand you are describing two separate "objects", a "Jewish object" and a "Gentile object". But that describes two wholly separate and distinct containers of uniquely different folks who in some ways are "alien" to each other. You can have "Jewish-Christian dialogue" between a Reform or Conservative Jewish synagogue and a Baptist or Methodist church, but they don't share the same "Messiah" and they barely share the same God. We, in Messianism, are supposed to share the same Messiah and the same God, but I really don't see the difference between a Gentile Christian's relationship with a Messianic Jewish group vs a Christian's relationship with any other (non-Messianic) Jewish group.
What do Jews and Gentiles in the Messianic movement share, if anything at all?
I believe Jews and Gentiles should worship together, why not? I'm not saying it should be the rule but it should be allowed if a believer wanted to. How did the first Gentiles come to know G-d? They were spending plenty of time with those (Jewish people) who knew The True G-d! In the synagogue, sharing meals, it was a true friendship/fellowship.
Anything else will only bring division and problems, that is not what our LORD wants. I was born and raised in the city (the hood) and i know where this leads and what it looks like - race issue. G-d forbid.
"I believe Jews and Gentiles should worship together, why not? I'm not saying it should be the rule but it should be allowed if a believer wanted to. How did the first Gentiles come to know G-d? "
Rey, did you ever consider making a home in a community of Chinese Christians? I think you should join a local Chinese church. Why not? Would it not demonstrate your unity with your Chinese brothers?
Also, where did you read that Gentiles are not to be allowed to worship alongside Jews? I don't think that anyone has ever advocated that. Even the mainstream, non MJ synagogues host gentiles. Please read my article on Messianic Jewish Majority congregations and you will see that it very much takes into account Gentiles who would like to make their home in a Messianic Jewish community:
http://dailyminyan.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/jewish-majority-messianic-communities/
"They were spending plenty of time with those (Jewish people) who knew The True G-d! In the synagogue, sharing meals, it was a true friendship/fellowship. "
Rey, that was then and this is now. Things have changed in the last 2K years. Jewish people today are a tiny and aging minority in the Messianic "Jewish" communities they established. Many of those communities have lost whatever the little Jewish character they originally had leaving only a thin veneer of misused Judaica and have become Hebrew Roots churches. 99% of the Gentile believers today worship in the communities patterned after their own cultural and spiritual needs. Things are a bit different that there were in the first century.
Moving on to the next blog post: Jews are from Mars, Christians are from Venus.
I'm betting the rabbi's wife spoke to another woman because she was uncomfortable speaking to a man, more than anything.
I have found many religious Jewish females do the same.
I once talked to a nice Jewish family, parents and their kids, at a Chabad synagogue, and when we were leaving, I went to shake their hands and say goodbye. The woman had to stop me and say it wasn't the proper thing to do among this group. Woops.
Judah,
This is common in Israel. I remember riding a bus with my wife when a woman asked me to go sit elsewhere so she can sit near a woman.
"I remember riding a bus with my wife when a woman asked me to go sit elsewhere so she can sit near a woman."
Dan, tell me you didn't react to that woman's request the way you did to that guy on another bus, in Canada:)?
Gene,
LOL! No I didn't, I just told her to take a taxi....Just kidding....
LOL! No I didn't, I just told her to take a taxi....Just kidding....
Dan, would that have required she have a female cab driver? Also just kidding. :)
James, you asked, "What do Jews and Gentiles in the Messianic movement share, if anything at all?"
Based on my observations, all but a few MJ congregations have large Gentile majorities. They obviously share a lot.
What Gene and I advocate is something different -- a "neighborhood" for Jews; congregations that are demographically, religiously, and socially Jewish. We do not advocate this for ethnic reasons, but because we believe it is an integral part of our calling. (As inter-marrieds, you and your wife would be totally welcome in any BI congregation I know of.)
BTW, I'm Rabbi, not (yet) Dr., Kinbar
Sorry about the "title confusion". I have a tendency to not often refer to a person as "Rabbi", largely because I've seen titles misused by people in various congregations. I'm not even sure how people become a Rabbi, relative to Rabbis in other more traditional forms of Judaism, within the Messianic context.
I realize the reality of there being large numbers of non-Jews in Messianic congregations and, if you've read my other comments over the past few days, you know that I do not disdain the idea of Jewish congregations for Jews, but assuming we create congregations that are either primarily Jewish or primarily Gentile (and reduce or eliminate "mixed" congregations), how is the common bond in Yeshua expressed between them.
I'm not demanding that Jews and Gentiles in "the movement be the same or behave the same way, but in the quest to establish distinctiveness of identities, we should not lose sight of what we're supposed to have in common.
Oh, lastly, while my wife and I have previous experiences in both a church setting and a Messianic (One Law) group, she has chosen to pursue her Jewish identity in association with the local Chabad and is not currently Messianic. We are probably more of a "mixed marriage" than most intermarried couples in Messianic congregations. While she would be welcome, she would not feel comfortable attending or visiting a Messianic group.
Want to see the "Bilateral Ecclesiology" conversation as a drawing? Have a look at Mike, Morrie, and the Fence.
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