OK, that's overly dramatic, but I do see faith and the pursuit of faith as a kind of struggle. I even blogged on this topic not too long ago. In fact, referencing that blog post, this is part of how I envision the struggle:
For years I had struggled with the theology of Catholicism, a theology which emphasizes belief. Once I seriously questioned that belief, the roots of my faith were shattered. Though I was taught that deeds were important, the stress was on having faith, on "believing in" something, even though or perhaps especially because it evaded all reason. In Judaism, by contrast, it is the emphasis on action, on righteous behavior that I find so attractive. The allowance, sometimes encouragement, of questions concerning belief, God, and truth is such a welcome relief. One can be religious and question; in fact, it is one's duty to question. Once I had learned that Israel meant "to struggle with God", I felt my destiny at hand.I started this blog last July to investigate the struggle in my own faith and the struggle of trying to integrate, or at least invite fellowship between Gentiles and Jews in the Messianic movement. Five months later, the struggle continues, with mixed results.
by Lydia Kukoff in her book
Choosing Judaism
I must admit that the struggle is also one based on my personality and self identity and, while God is the author of who I am, I've also been tinkering around with his creation (me) for the past 56 years, so I have to take responsibility at this point, for what I've done with his basic handiwork. This blog is the result.
In questioning my own assumptions about faith and about a Gentile's place in the "sheep pen" of the Jewish Messiah, I also must question the assumptions of others. This makes me the pursuer and occasionally the slayer of "sacred cows". No one likes to have their sacred cows picked on and anyone who has the nerve to try will likely become unpopular.
Over these past several months, I've "taken on" various sacred cows with different degrees of zeal, but my most recent blog post (besides this one) is fully confronting the One Law/One Torah sacred cow. Keep in mind, I'm not necessarily aligning with one group over the other. If it were that simple, this blog may well not exist and I'd simply align with a particular organization or leader and settle quietly into that niche. What I am trying to do instead is to perform a bit of honest exploration on my own and see what comes up, without depending on drinking anyone's kool-aid.
Many other writers in the Messianic blogosphere focus on their areas of expertise and perhaps their comfort zones. We all like our comfort zones. I like my comfort zone. It's nice and cozy there. I've just been having trouble finding a comfort zone in the community of faith lately. Not that I don't take comfort from God and not that I can't be eased by the Spirit of the Messiah, but how that life of faith is to be lived out is another story. My personal story is compounded by the fact that my wife is Jewish but not Messianic. That means the one person in my life that God designed for me to share all of my inner self with cannot share my faith, nor can I embrace her faith which must deny the Messiah.
So I chase cows.
I try to be polite about it, but someone has to ask these silly questions. Recently, Judah Gabriel Himango commented in one of my blogs that "...since you've been pining on about gentiles..." The nature of text-only blog comments doesn't always allow me to understand the intent or mood of the commenter, so I don't know exactly what Judah meant by that statement, but when I looked up the definition of pining, it said, a feeling of deep longing. That's the noun. Synonyms (in verb form) are "ache", "yearn", "yen", "languish". In some stories, young, star-crossed lovers separated for months or years on end tend to "pine" for one another.
However, as a Gentile in "the movement", I speak with the voice of a Gentile who is trying to understand how or if "the rest of us" fit into the Kingdom of God. I don't doubt that God accepts us. Otherwise, why did Yeshua do what he did? Why did the Messiah die for all humanity? Why would the Messiah send Paul as an emissary to the Gentiles? Why did God unfold a sheet of trief in front of Peter and then go tell him to have a meal with the Gentile God-fearer Cornelius?
But what does it all mean and how does it all work on a day-to-day basis? That's why I chase down sacred cows. It's my way of separating the chaff from the wheat in order to get down to the answer, if we can ever get to the answer. Chasing cows and removing chaff takes is a lot of work. It's pursuing faith. It's a struggle. That's why I'm here.
I chase cows.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress.
48 comments:
James,
Great Post!! I have that same daily struggle!
"But what does it all mean and how does it all work on a day-to-day basis?"
The only way I think it will work, that is to have Jews and Gentiles at peace with G-d's plan for them and with one another, is when all Jews, all of them, every last Jew, are back in their own land and out of Diaspora (Isaiah 11:11-12).
In the worlds of Christianity and in the relatively tiny Messianic Movement, one sees rampant assimilation and confusion - the few believing Jews out there are being Gentilised, totally cut off from their own people and heritage, and small and fragmented groups of Gentiles in U.S. and South America are Judaising themselves (Brazil, Venezuela, and Mexico are prime examples).
With Messiah ruling and with every nation living in their own land and all of Israel finally securely residing in her own, lawlessness, assimilation and confusion about Israel's and the nations' roles will no longer reign. Nations will then be able to make pilgrimage to Israel and interact with the Jewish people without any threat to each other's identity and purpose.
Supposedly "the times of the Gentiles" are nearing their end, and regathering of Israel seems to be next on the prophetic agenda (that's of course pure speculation, and for all I know, all this could be hundreds of years into the future - but I hope not:)
The only way I think it will work, that is to have Jews and Gentiles at peace with G-d's plan for them and with one another, is when all Jews, all of them, every last Jew, are back in their own land and out of Diaspora (Isaiah 11:11-12).
While we know a great deal about God's plan for the Jews and for the nations, there is enough debate about what we don't know (or don't understand) to add a fair amount of confusion, or at least difference of opinion, to the mix.
This doesn't mean (in my opinion, anyway), that we should just sit on our hands and wait for the Messiah's return. While I don't know if human action can actually hasten the Messiah's return, I do know that performing the more obvious expressions of his will (feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, being a light to others) is what our lives are for on earth.
Find a needy person and help them. It's there you'll find Yeshua's commandments and his peace.
"Find a needy person and help them. It's there you'll find Yeshua's commandments and his peace."
No doubt, James. We've got to keep ourselves occupied until Messiah comes. Interestingly, the Jewish community has been doing just that for thousands of years - it's at the very core of Judaism and Jewish culture.
Of course, while doing tzedakah is absolutely noble and a must for all, this will still not help answer the questions you've raising on your blog - where do Jews and Gentiles fit in with each other TODAY and practically speaking:)
I agree, Gene. It won't answer those questions. But while we're pursuing those questions, we can also be pursuing a path of righteousness on which we have sure footing.
Of course doing tzedakah comes from the Jews. Where do you think I got it from? There are some things we have in common. ;-)
Oh, and I don't see performing acts of righteousness and charity as just something to do to kill time while we're waiting for Messiah's return. It is what we do to live out our faith. Otherwise, all this is just some curious sort of intellectual exercise.
I write "pining", I meant to write opining. :-)
(previous comment deleted due to wrong link)
I write "pining", I meant to write opining. :-)
(previous comment deleted due to wrong link)
Oh. That certainly is a horse of a different color. :)
Lol...a great post generated from a typo. (Probably not the first time.)
James, I don't think I thank you enough for the thoughts, questions, and opinions which you share on this blog. I really appreciate them, and your voice and participation in this "movement."
I hope you will come to DC and visit us sometime...
Thanks, Yahnatan. I don't get back east much, but my brother and his wife live in Arlington, so if I am ever visiting him, I'll be glad to drop in on you and yours.
Ditto. James' personal blog has become one of the best in the Messianic blogosphere. You do good work with your writing, James.
And keep slayin' those cows. :-)
You guys are going to make me blush. Thanks for the support.
I don't believe that we (believers) are supposed to be so separated (Jews and Gentiels), we are part of the same community - Israel!
"I don't believe that we (believers) are supposed to be so separated (Jews and Gentiels), we are part of the same community - Israel!"
You are entitled to your beliefs, Rey. However, throughout the Bible, "OT" and "NT" there's Israel and there are Nations. In the prophets it shows nations making pilgrimage to Israel year after year and all the nations still retained their names (Egypt is still Egypt, etc.) In Revelation 21:24 we read "The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it," meaning the nations will retain their identities into eternity.
We are distinct but we are all part of the same Body of Messiah. Both Jews and Gentiles are citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel (Kingdom of Heaven composed of all nations with Israel as the head), but Gentiles are not Israel and are never referred to as Israel anywhere.
The Church has been calling itself "Israel" for quite a while and we all know the name of that theology.
You can be separated and distinct, and yet one. It doesn't preclude our fellowship. Are you part of the same community as Christians in China? Yes/No? You are, even though you are not part of that community, even though you are not physically worshiping with Chinese believers, nor worshiping according to their customs, singing the same songs, etc. and etc. You can visit them there and even join them permanently if you choose, but that's not your community.
You can be separated and distinct, and yet one. It doesn't preclude our fellowship. Are you part of the same community as Christians in China? Yes/No? You are, even though you are not part of that community, even though you are not physically worshiping with Chinese believers, nor worshiping according to their customs, singing the same songs, etc. and etc. You can visit them there and even join them permanently if you choose, but that's not your community.
All that said, if a Chinese Christian visitor wanted to worship at my congregation, I wouldn't say "No, you aren't part of our community" (and I know you said that fellowship isn't prohibited). Of course we'd welcome him or her in to our midst and try to make them feel at home.
In fact, that's pretty much what happens when we have visitors who've never had a "Messianic experience" before. We had two different families with us last Shabbat and I was quite busy helping them understand how we conducted worship and prayer and explaining what do expect. Just because someone is from a different community, doesn't mean you don't treat them like brothers and sisters in the Messiah. Who is to say that these people who are not now part of our community might not join and, in time, be fully integrated into who we are?
Joseph Telushkin writes in his book Hillel: If Not Now, When:
It says something about Judaism that both Hillel and Shammai, and many of their followers, remain revered figures within traditional Judaism, even when they embody opposite approaches to the law and to life itself. In this regard, Talmudic Judaism is anti-fundamentalist. It isn't simply the answer that is prized, it is the argument itself, the culture of disputation, the wrestling with the truth.
Extending this into the Messianic realm and yes, between Messianic Jews and Gentiles, the real value of our relationship with each other in the Messiah may be found, not just in a resolution, but in the "struggle" between each other. Much like you expose gold or silver to a fire to burn away the dross.
"All that said, if a Chinese Christian visitor wanted to worship at my congregation, I wouldn't say "No, you aren't part of our community" (and I know you said that fellowship isn't prohibited). Of course we'd welcome him or her in to our midst and try to make them feel at home."
And ALL synagogues welcome Gentiles. Synagogues of Jewish followers of Messiah must welcome Gentiles even more so. No one should be told you are not welcome. However, the problems only arise when a non-Jewish visitor/guest/member assumes that the Jewish community exists for his spiritual needs (it's not set up for that), and especially when he assumes to be just as much an Israel/a Jew and acts accordingly, or demands that the Jewish community act and treat him accordingly (I am not talking qualitative treatment here, lest I am misunderstood). That's where problems begin and end (within the modern MJM movement - I am not sure this was a problem in the first century) - not in fellowship or presence of Gentiles within a Jewish community!
"between Messianic Jews and Gentiles, the real value of our relationship with each other in the Messiah may be found, not just in a resolution, but in the "struggle" between each other."
True. It's the same between believers and G-d, and even between Jews themselves.
We've got just a ton of blogs and blog comments on the issue of Jewish and Gentile relationship within the Messianic world (are Gentile's "Israel" sort of thing), but that's not the primary reason why I wrote this particular post (or is it?).
That's where problems begin and end (within the modern MJM movement - I am not sure this was a problem in the first century) - not in fellowship or presence of Gentiles within a Jewish community!
I'm listening to Toby Janicki's (FFOZ) audio teaching series "What About Paganism?" right now (well, not literally at this moment) and plan to write a review when I'm done. He does a nice job of covering the problems of bringing Gentile disciples into the Messianic faith, largely due to their pagan history. While Messianic Gentiles and Jews have their (our) differences, it seems like the 1st century Jewish/Gentile issues were quite a bit different.
Given the title and nature of this article we are commenting in, maybe I should ask the question, "What is the sacred cow in this conversation?"
"Given the title and nature of this article we are commenting in, maybe I should ask the question, "What is the sacred cow in this conversation?"
In our particular discussion, the sacred cow is: does a Jewish community of Jewish believers have a right to exist for its own sake or must it always become a church that caters to everyone.
In our particular discussion, the sacred cow is: does a Jewish community of Jewish believers have a right to exist for its own sake or must it always become a church that caters to everyone.
Good question. There are two opposing forces at work. The first is what you just said, Gene. That the Messianic Jewish community has the right to exist to serve Messianic Jews...not Gentiles. Of course, if there were no Gentiles in the Messianic community, the issue be moot. End of story.
The second force is that emissaries were sent to the Gentiles from the Jewish Messianic community 2000 years ago at the command of the Messiah himself and the Jewish Messianics have been trying to figure out what to do with them (us) ever since.
It wouldn't have been so bad if Paul hadn't said this in Ephesians 2:11-13:
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
I'm not saying I want to move in with you, have any say in your congregation, or that I have any claim to even one square inch of Israeli real estate, but this statement causes a problem. What relationship do Gentiles have relative to Messianic Jewish?
Bilateral Ecclesiology (B/I) attempts to solve this problem by defining two separate physical (and largely spiritual) worship venues, putting Jews in one container and Gentiles in another. The problem is that, as specific as Paul could be on some topics, he never said anything about B/I in his letters. The concept was created, as I see it, largely to deal with the modern "Messianic dilemma" and doesn't seem to be ancient in origin.
Again, I'm not saying that Jewish Messianic synagogues are supposed to open their doors and let all comers take over and set the rules. I agree that each community has the right to set their own standards including standards for membership. But there must be some sort of basis for communication and yes, for "community" between all the different parts of the body of Messiah. Maybe it won't be an immediate all-in-one-house community, but a "family reunion" of some sort. Yeshua said in Matthew 8:11 that Gentiles would take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
I guess we'll be rubbing elbows at some point or another.
Gene, that is not what i mean, at all. What I'm saying is what is wrong with a Jewish believer and a Gentile believer worshiping together in the same congregation? All under the authority of Scripture!
I don't call myself Jewish, I know what I am.hyledac
"I guess we'll be rubbing elbows at some point or another."
We certainly will. James, you are welcome to join me at my far corner of the feast table (where the giant table leg is) :)
We certainly will. James, you are welcome to join me at my far corner of the feast table (where the giant table leg is) :)
I hope a couple of giant turkey legs are there, too. I'm getting kind of hungry. ;-)
"I don't call myself Jewish, I know what I am."
OK, Rey, whatever you say:)
"I hope a couple of giant turkey legs..."
Rabbis taught that even grapes in the Kingdom will be gigantic. I can only imagine what turkey legs will look like:)
OK, before this gets out of hand Rey and Gene, maybe it would help if we clarified terms.
Rey, it might help if you offered a little more detail about how you see "grafted-in" Gentiles in relation to Jews in the Messianic community.
Gene, not every Gentile who wants fellowship with their Jewish brothers in the Messiah has ulterior motives. Maybe this is what is referred to as a "teachable moment". Think Hillel, not Shammai.
It only make sense that since The True G-d revealed Himself through Israel (Jewish people), that when the Gentiles would begin to learn from them (Jewish people), that much of the same ways of worshiping and praying and walking according to G-d's Instructions will certainly look the same! Is that logical?
Taking into account that Gentiles in their former walk were pagans in all their ways, their new life much be very different/opposite. They cannot begin to worship The True G-d in the ways they would worship false gods, because that would bring big problems. There is only one way that G-d has revealed the correct way to worship and walk according to His will, and that is what He has taught Israel.
Gene, James,
I didn't mean what i said in any negative way, sorry if it sounded that way. But i was just trying to be clear.
Taking into account that Gentiles in their former walk were pagans in all their ways, their new life much be very different/opposite. They cannot begin to worship The True G-d in the ways they would worship false gods, because that would bring big problems. There is only one way that G-d has revealed the correct way to worship and walk according to His will, and that is what He has taught Israel.
I agree that the Gentiles leaving pagan practices to worship the One True God of Israel had a huge learning curve and I also agree that worshiping God in the same manner as the former pagans worshiped idols would have been a form of idolatry, which is forbidden.
The question we're all struggling with is exactly what is the proper model of worship of God for Messianic Gentiles vs. Messianic Jews. Some say they should be identical while others say Gentiles should not "misappropriate" anything that is specifically Jewish.
It gets confusing.
Unfortunately, misunderstandings and stepped-on-toes happen in these conversations on occasion. Struggling to understand and wanting to learn isn't a crime or a sin. If it were, I'd have been hung up by my pointy little ears a long time ago. Learning, like faith, is a lifelong journey.
Perhaps I am a bit slow on the uptake, but I think I understand Gene's point; and with this point I agree.
Our community is a Messianic Jewish Community; which means that although we do incorporate some contemporary Christian music into our service, we do mostly traditional Jewish, Messianic Jewish and some Israeli music in our worship service. We sing traditional liturgy and we chant the Torah. We have a Torah processional each and every week. I'm sure you understand.
That being said, although we welcome all to come to service, I can tell you that we are not for everyone. The vast majority of saints just don't get it...and I hear about it all the time. We have been called 'legalists' 'a cult' and some things that I will not repeat here...mostly because we will not change what we are doing to suit the demands of specific theologies.
I have heard this type of statement many times, 'It was a good word, but I don't know about all this Jewish stuff, we've been freed from that.'
I do understand the debate regarding the 'gentile' question; but understand some of the frustration that we experience. We are not accepted by the Jewish community and we are largely not accepted by the Christian community. Nearly every culture that is represented in the Church is accepted to some degree, or their traditional practices; as far as I know the only culture that appears to be banned is the Jewish culture, irony.
It has been difficult at times to be what we are; a Messianic Jewish community. That being said, many saints from the nations come, take part, feel and make our community their home for years or a season. Yet, in practice, expression and in worship we are a Messianic Jewish community attempting to meet the needs of the Jewish community, both believing and non-believing as we also reach out to the nations in obedience to the Messiah's command.
If I was off please accept my apology.
Shalom, J
I must not be communicating well. I'm not disagreeing with Gene or with you, Justin. I realize this is not for everyone. My only issue is that, as you say and as Gene has said, everyone should be welcomed through the door as brothers and sisters in the Messiah. Not everyone will be "cool" with it and many won't come back, but we should at least be friendly and show love and grace to them.
Part of what I was saying before was to try and "head off" what seemed like an "issue" that was brewing between Gene and Rey. Misunderstandings and misconceptions among Gentiles in the Messianic movement are vast and can only be addressed through communication. Part of the class I plan on teaching is directed at clearing up misunderstanding and challenging Gentile assumptions regarding "One Law".
At no time did I think I was disagreeing with Gene or with what you've said. If I was, I apologize and would appreciate it if you could point out my erroneous statement.
MJ Gene's style are stiff neck people. They choose not to acknowledge God's work among His people. The fact is that 90% of MJ members are Gentiles.
IT IS GOD'S WORK. Showing the proud Jews that the last word is His.
"At no time did I think I was disagreeing with Gene or with what you've said. If I was, I apologize and would appreciate it if you could point out my erroneous statement."
Everything is peachy, James. At no time did I find anything you said disagreeable or offensive.
Rey also, everything is fine - I understand your point about unity. My point, however, is that Jewish people are very small in number - the only way we survived, the only way we avoid disappearing into the world is by sticking together in our own communities. Everything else led to assimilation and compromise. It doesn't mean that we as Jews who believe in Yeshua should avoid fellowship with Gentiles who also believe in Israel's G-d and Messiah for fear of being numerically taken over and taken out (as indeed happened in the first century). It just means that this time around we have to be wise about it. Having our own piece of "land" (by which I mean having our own communities) is the only way to do this. Just as the land of Israel is allocated to the Jewish people by G-d even to this very day, so do Jewish followers of Messiah need their own space.
"MJ Gene's style are stiff neck people."
Dan, thank you for the complement. I'd rather be stiff-necked but with my Jewish people.
No James my issue is not with anything that you have written or questioned through your posts. My previous post was a bit of my own frustration, please do not take offense from what I have written; as it was not directed at you, or anyone else that has commented.
If you look at our community page on my blog you will see that all are welcomed in our community; it slips my mind how I worded it but I believe that it speaks for itself. For me personally the 'gentile' question is settled. I cannot claim to have a working answer for everyone in the MJ movement, but we have developed a wonderful community of people from all backgrounds; but distinctly MJ in expression.
The last place that any of us need conflict is among our messianic brethren. As I peruse the MJ blogs and read some of the more vocal personalities; one thing that is bothering me is that some who are telling 'gentiles' to not engage in 'Jewish' practices are themselves engaging in and promoting such practices, even though they are admittedly 'gentiles' themselves. To me its the elephant in the room that no one is talking about. A couple have even stated that 'gentiles' should remain in the 'Church' because the MJ movement is Jewish; while at the same time they admitt to having undergone a MJ conversion; do we have halahka for this? Troubling.
We have a way to go here. James you are asking the right questions, but the answers may be harder for everyone to agree on.
Shalom, J
Justin,
I just want to respond to one specific question of yours:
"A couple have even stated that 'gentiles' should remain in the 'Church' because the MJ movement is Jewish; while at the same time they admit to having undergone a MJ conversion; do we have halahka for this? Troubling."
I'm not sure what you mean by "do we have halakha for this?" but one of the reasons the MJRC was formed was to create 'standards' in order to guide such conversion processes. (There is an explanation for why they have chosen to create 'standards' vs 'halakha' on their website.)
While one might question whether such conversions are permissible on on Biblical or traditional grounds, an important point to consider is that when non-Jews are permitted or encouraged (or choose!) to take on a fully Jewish lifestyle and live in a Jewish community as their primary community of reference, one can argue that a conversion is in essence being performed--if not for them, then certainly for their children.
DB: I believe you have sharp disagreements with the MJRC's approach. Feel free to voice them; I hope you don't mind though if I mostly sit out the discussion.
Guess we cleared that up. Thanks, all.
Justin, what you said reminded me of a movie quote I recently used on another blog post. We must ask the right questions:
That, Detective, is the right question. Program terminated.
Well, not terminated. Just sleepy. Good night.
I laid down but my brain didn't turn off. I've got to write this down now. I'll forget by morning. I just occurred to me...why didn't Yeshua just command his Jewish disciples to convert all of the nations to Judaism (Matthew 28:18-20)? It would have solved a lot of problems. Instead, he commanded that his Jewish disciples make disciples of the Gentiles without converting them to Judaism.
More on this later.
Blessings Yahnatan; I will have to review the standards established by the MJRC, as I am not familiar with them specifically. As you know well the issue of MJ conversion is fraught with Biblical issues. Perhaps not forbidden but not directly encouraged; unless we look at the ancient practice of conversion as described in some of the Talmudic arguments in light of NT truth.
It is Rabbi Zalman Schachter's position that all Jews today are Jews by choice and that unfortunately that number is diminishing daily; although this is just one rabbis opinion. We have a number of members in our community who live a 'Jewish' lifestyle and are raising their children within the framework of MJ, with no connection to the traditional Church. Is this conversion? One of sorts...perhaps. I would be cautious to label it as such; but what else would it be. They certainly are binding themselves to Him and the Jewish people, which as we know is not an easy designation to have.
In traditional Judaism one of the most important commitments that a convert makes is to raise their children as Jews, some would argue that this is the most important and perhaps the best test of the conversions validity.
In the end I believe that individual congregations and their leaders will make these types of decisions for themselves, perhaps with the help of standards established by a group of MJ rabbis. In my experience many 'gentiles' who adopt a MJ lifestyle are heavily persecuted by family, friends and even former pastors...
It is a difficult area. I am not against it, but I am not for it. I will have to do more reading and study to settle this issue in my mind, but in greater MJ that will not have much of an effect. As I stated in an earlier post, for me the 'gentile' question is settled.
My comments regarding conversion in my previous post were specific to people undergoing conversion and then telling others to not undergo it...or not to take on 'Jewish practice.' Kind of a 'do as I say, not as I do' situation.
Shalom, J
Yahnatan,
When someone chooses to live a Jewish lifestyle, and join a Jewish community,why does he have to undergo circumcision?
Yes, you bet i have sharp disagreement with the self appointed MJRC....
Grafted-in Gentiles as Messianics vs. Gentiles "converting" to Messianic Judaism as a Judaism is an interesting topic but you're right Justin, Paul really strongly discouraged it such as in his admonation in Galatians 5:2. Also the Acts 15 letter, as I read it, is telling the Gentile disciples that they don't have to convert to Judaism to worship the Messiah and be a covenant member in God's Kingdom.
If Gentiles not only don't have to convert to Judaism to "be saved" but are strongly discouraged from conversion as the only means of having a valid relationship with God, what does it mean for Gentile Messianics relative to a "Jewish lifestyle"? I state in my previous blog post that most Gentiles in the Messianic movement don't "keep the law" basically because they don't know how. They (we) read the Torah, take the plain meaning of the text, throw in some modern Jewish observance practices and Viola! We're "keeping the Torah".
The minor revelation I had last night about Yeshua's Matthew 28:18-20 directive to make "disciples" of the nations but not specifically to convert them, plus Paul's Galatians rant raises a question. While converting Gentiles would have, in some ways, been easier, since it would be more understandable to the Jewish nation at large and probably the rest of the world, plugging Gentile disciples into the covenant without conversion creates a heck of a mess. Why didn't Yeshua just command the easier and more straightforward course? What would the world have looked like if Paul, Peter, and the rest of the Messianics had converted the Gentiles to Judaism instead of Gentile Messianic practice?
Fast forward 2000 years and we're facing the same issue. If Gentiles were never meant to convert as part of the Messiah's plan, then what does that mean relative to a "Jewish" observance and lifestyle?
"If Gentiles not only don't have to convert to Judaism to "be saved" but are strongly discouraged from conversion as the only means of having a valid relationship with God, what does it mean for Gentile Messianics relative to a "Jewish lifestyle"?"
Great question, James. I will submit to you that most of the Gentiles are in whatever is call Messianic movement these days are there because they felt that worshiping "Jewshly" is the only PROPER way to worship G-d (as opposed to worshiping the "pagan" way of the church, as many of them think). In effect, they wanted to convert to some form of Judaism [looking] faith (the religion, if not the ethnicity), but didn't believe in outright conversion because of the expressed teaching in NT against it and because of anti-rabbinism.
One can conclude from the above that most didn't join because they wanted to fellowship with Jews and be "One New Man". They wanted Judaism as an alternative to Christianity. After all, look at the number of congregations that have no Jews in them or even at the small percentage of Jews even in the "Jewish" (Jewish-led) congregations. I suspect that re-examining the supposed pagan roots of Christianity will persuade many to rejoin the church.
One can conclude from the above that most didn't join because they wanted to fellowship with Jews and be "One New Man". They wanted Judaism as an alternative to Christianity. After all, look at the number of congregations that have no Jews in them or even at the small percentage of Jews even in the "Jewish" (Jewish-led) congregations. I suspect that re-examining the supposed pagan roots of Christianity will persuade many to rejoin the church.
I think there's a certain amount of truth to this, particularly when you look at Gentiles who have joined the Messianic movement only to eventually convert to Judaism (usually the non-Messianic kind). A lot of these folks (and I've met plenty) are "seduced" by the Jewishness of Judaism rather than really being attracted to seeking the ways of God. I'm not saying this is deliberate intent. The process can be very subtle and I don't doubt that most of these individuals sincerely believe that they're serving God every step of the way.
That said, I believe other Gentiles are drawn to the Messianic movement as a way to acknowledge and honor the Jewishness of the Jewish Messiah, the root of the Christian (Yes, I'll use the "C" word) faith, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I don't believe you can paint all Gentiles in the Messianic realm with one broad brush and say they are all insincere or disingenuous. Some of us are really seeking God.
Also, there is a certain dimension that is added to teachings and worship when you look at God and the Messiah from a non-traditional church perspective. Certainly, if I had stayed in the church, I wouldn't be reading Telushkin's Hillel: If Not Now, When? as the church doesn't usually encourage a study of the Jewish sages. Yet, this book opens up a great deal of wisdom that I believe can be applied to worship of God and following the Messiah (though Telushkin is certainly no fan of Christianity).
As far as my returning to the church, I previously outlined the problems involved in that in a blog post I wrote last July. My theological perspective tied in with my big mouth wouldn't result in my being "a good fit" in a typical church setting.
I do think that we need to challenge the assumptions of everyone involved in "the movement", including Gentile One Law/One Torah supporters. We often do what we're told in the community of faith without asking questions. We need to continually ask those questions, particularly about our own motives.
"I don't believe you can paint all Gentiles in the Messianic realm with one broad brush and say they are all insincere or disingenuous. Some of us are really seeking God."
James, I do believe that MOST are in it because they sincerely think that this is where G-d would want them to be, although even just looking at readers feedback on recent FFOZ's articles on paganism, many are quite naive about what they got themselves into.
"As far as my returning to the church, I previously outlined the problems involved in that in a blog post I wrote last July. My theological perspective tied in with my big mouth wouldn't result in my being "a good fit" in a typical church setting."
That may be so, but your objectivity on Jewish/Gentile issues would have been an awesome asset to a church or even to a MJ congregation.
I will restate a point i made earlier.
G-d revealed Himself to the world through the Jewish people Israel. Israel is supposed to be a light to the Gentiles. Gentiles come to know The True G-d through our Jewish brethren which then bring the light to us. Now when Gentiles were being discipled by Jews it is only a normal process that Gentiles also learn the same manor of worship as Jewish people. No more pagan lifestyle! G-d revealed Himself and the correct way to worship Him to Israel, in turn Israel teaches the Gentiles.
The Feasts of The LORD, Shabbat, The Scriptures...all these are blessings and very important teachings for believers to get to know their G-d in a more deeper manner. Every Gentile is not an anti Semite, I for one have a very special love for my Jewish brethren. I thank G-d daily for using them in my life so mightily...not to mention that all my heroes are Jewish! My Savior is Jewish, He is my life and my very breath, so it would only make sense that I'm very close to Jewish ways.
Ruth 1:16,17
" I suspect that re-examining the supposed pagan roots of Christianity will persuade many to rejoin the church."
I agree with what you stated in your post Gene however as one who was delivered out of paganism and the occult in my late teens I am intimately familiar with pagan practice and history. I am not insinuating that everything in the Church is pagan, but the influence is there. Christians are free to worship and celebrate as they desire but I do not know many Jews who were provoked to jealousy by trees or easter eggs or prayers to stone 'saints.' As Paul taught in Romans 11, part of the purpose of the salvation of the nations was to provoke the Jew to jealousy.
As a 'self ascribed' thinking man I cannot help but consider the connection between those who are embracing the Bilateral Ecclesiology and the recent push to accept and/or sanitize some questionable practices embraced by some Church brethren.
Sadly, I am be disqualified from this portion of debate because of my history and particular sensitivity to this topic. I am concerned that some who purchase products from FFOZ, in particular the recent pagan teaching, will accept everything which is presented as absolute truth and fail to enter into further research. Not a criticism of FFOZ, just a concern on my part, as I have stated before, I do support them.
Shalom, J
Sorry, the last paragraph of my most recent post should begin:
"Sadly, I may be disqualified..."
J
James, I do believe that MOST are in it because they sincerely think that this is where G-d would want them to be, although even just looking at readers feedback on recent FFOZ's articles on paganism, many are quite naive about what they got themselves into.
That's exactly my point and I can attest to this personally. Years into the Messianic movement, I suddenly realized that I don't know what I'm doing. So I embarked on a quest to try to figure out who I am and where I'm supposed to belong. Amazingly, no one I've asked has the answer (OK, some think they do, but there's no consensus and it's all wildly contradictory). Hence this blog and my new found hobby of tipping sacred cows.
G-d revealed Himself to the world through the Jewish people Israel. Israel is supposed to be a light to the Gentiles. Gentiles come to know The True G-d through our Jewish brethren which then bring the light to us. Now when Gentiles were being discipled by Jews it is only a normal process that Gentiles also learn the same manor of worship as Jewish people. No more pagan lifestyle! G-d revealed Himself and the correct way to worship Him to Israel, in turn Israel teaches the Gentiles.
As Spock said in one of the Star Trek movies, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it", or words to that effect. As Gentile Messianics are introduced and first begin to explore Hebraic-based worship, we learn some of the basics that the original Gentile disciples may have been exposed to back in the 1st century B.C.E. but that's only the beginning. We've been told, by one group or the other, who and what we are in the Messiah, but often, we've just taken for granted that our information source is accurate and unbiased. Nothing could be further from the truth. No matter who we are or what we believe, if we've never taken even a moment to question our basic assumptions or the accuracy and validity of our teachers, we need to stop and ask some hard questions.
This doesn't mean doubting our faith or doubting God, but we need to make sure we are following what God wants and not just what makes us feel good.
Ruth made her declaration out of a sense of sincere dedication to Naomi, Naomi's people, and Naomi's God. Her initial statement was made in a few seconds, but it took the rest of her life to fully realize it.
Sadly, I am be disqualified from this portion of debate because of my history and particular sensitivity to this topic. I am concerned that some who purchase products from FFOZ, in particular the recent pagan teaching, will accept everything which is presented as absolute truth and fail to enter into further research. Not a criticism of FFOZ, just a concern on my part, as I have stated before, I do support them.
I've listened to most of Toby's lecture on paganism (listening to CDs is what commutes to and from work are made for) and I find the teaching pretty well balanced. He doesn't advocate a particular position most of the time and presents a number of traditional Jewish positions, plus some alternative explanations, when looking at different celebrations and such. The net result seems to be (I'll be writing a full review by the by) that we need to consider all of the facts as we can find them and pray for wisdom prior to making a definitive stand. Certainly Christianity has practices that originally came from pagan sources but even Judaism isn't 100% free of exterior influences.
James,
I agree. I think it would be foolish for anybody to just take man's word for it. We all must be Bereans Acts.17:11, Search The Scriptures daily to see if those things are so.
When it is all said and done we all must give account to G-d for every decision we have made or haven't made.
I'm very careful and pray for much discernment in these matters. We do need to stop and ask the right questions always - test the spirits.
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