Wednesday, January 5, 2011

Fractured

James, also - I am good friends with many Gentile Christians. Just talked to a pastor friend the other day about his plans to plant a new church, and me and my wife are meeting with our close friends, a Christian couple for dinner next week. What they all have in common is that none of them have any desire to be part of a Jewish congregation (yes, they came to visit) but all of them are VERY supportive of the work G-d is doing among Jewish believers.

I would like to add that Gentiles in "Messianic Movement" should first reconcile with their Christian Gentile brothers BEFORE they take on any issues they see with lack of unity with their Jewish brothers.

-Gene Shlomovich

Gene made these rather pointed statements on my blog post Messianic Principles of Faith. For the past six months, I've been attempting to find a middle ground between Jews and non-Jews in the Messianic movement, but in one way or another, I've been told that not only don't non-Jews belong in "the movement", but that it's impossible for us to call ourselves "Messianic". The most recent round of conversations I've tried to record in what I call my Bilateral Ecclesiology and the Gentiles Series has continued to build on a chain of thoughts leading to a single conclusion. I'll tell you what that conclusion is by the end of this post.

Bilateral Ecclesiology Supposition

Jews in the Messianic movement who support the concept and "theology" of Bilateral Ecclesiology state, in part, that Messianic Jews and Christian Gentiles can only have "unity" (or stand along side each other, but I'm not sure that is "unity"), if each group occupies separate and distinct faith, worship, and educational communities that support their unique identities. Messianic Jews must exist in a synagogue environment consistent with the other Judaisms currently in existence, and be allowed to have alignment and community with all other Jews and with Israel as Jewish covenant members. In order to accomplish this, few, if any, non-Jews would be welcome to participate on any level within a Messianic Jewish group except in the role of occasional visitor. The only viable exception would be if a non-Jew were married to a Jew and, for the sake of the Jewish member of the Messianic group, the non-Jew spouse would be allowed to attend.

In short, Bilateral Ecclesiology states that Jews must live as Jews and Gentiles must live as Gentiles. God planned for Gentiles to develop the Christian church system as defined by the past 2,000 years of church history. Regardless of the dissonance between Jews and Christians that history creates, the church as the only Christian worship venue for non-Jews must be maintained for the sake of Jewish distinctiveness in the Messianic movement. There are no other options.

Disclaimers

Before I go on, I want to say that nothing I'm writing here means that I don't have high regard for my fellow believers in the Christian church in my local community and all over the world. In my teaching and other interactions within my current congregation, I have defended the church and traditional Christianity. Some non-Jewish "One Law" believers tend to have a chip on their collective shoulder when it comes to the church and, while no worship community is perfect and without flaws, I have attempted to dispel poor attitudes towards the church in general and to encourage fellowship.

I also want to say that I hold Gene Shlomovich in high regard and I even thought we could have a friendship as time passed. I know it looks like I'm picking on him, but he's really representing a large organizational opinion that is gathering momentum in the Messianic movement, particularly with the Jewish members who have been raised in a religious and ethnic Jewish home and who, from childhood, have self-identified as Jews (there are exceptions, but this is the general trend as I see it). While there are Jewish people in "the movement" who are more accepting of non-Jewish members, it seems clear that a significant population of Jewish people in the Messianic world are unable to tolerate the presence of non-Jews as members of their communities. Their heartfelt desire is to establish and continue fellowship with their non-Jewish counterparts but only if the non-Jews are aligned and affiliated with the Christian church. From their perspective, no relationship can possibly exist with a Christian if that Christian desires entrance into a Jewish worship venue or for any reason whatsoever, does not desire to attend a church.

Response

Now that the disclaimers are out of the way, I want to proceed to the response. This is part of why, despite the requirements of Bilateral Ecclesiology and Messianic Judaism, I cannot return nor would I be welcome in a church setting. Some of the following content was previously posted in the blog Forked.

  1. Acceptance: The last time I was in a church Sunday school and said I didn't think that the Law died on the cross with Jesus, I received a rather cool (not the good kind) response. My core values include an acceptance of the Torah for Jewish believers and a benefit of Torah study for Christians. In order to be accepted in a Christian church setting, I would have to keep my mouth shut tight except for superficial, polite conversation which is going to kill most opportunities for authentic fellowship, especially if the church is supposed to be where God wants me to be.
  2. Education: If I have to go through one more Kay Arthur canned, programmed, "beloved", Bible study, I'm going to puke. I design teachings so people can ask questions, even the hard ones, so that people can really participate and share their perspectives, so that people can disagree and by such debates, explore their assumptions in order to learn and grow, not just so people can agree to the "party line". I'm not saying that Christian education is poor, but there aren't a lot of opportunities to stretch and develop and, as you know, I like questioning assumptions. You cannot seriously question an assumption in Sunday school. I've tried. It doesn't go over well. Again, I'll have to shut up.
  3. Ceremony: My family and I gave up Christmas and Easter long ago and we have no regrets. Even if I chose not to "celebrate" those events in my home, as part of a church, I'd be expected to participate in them in corporate worship and to at least fake being excited at the approach of the Christmas play. On a more specific note, a family my wife and I knew at our former church were recently asked to leave said-church. Reason? Like my family, they made a decision not to celebrate Christmas. The husband and wife are intelligent, reasonable people (and not religious wack jobs, as you might be assuming) who made this decision as a matter of conscience. The church chose not to honor their decision and evicted them instead.
  4. Food: I keep what the local Chabad Rabbi calls "kosher-style" which amounts to following the Leviticus 11 guidelines for what is and isn't food. It's a personal conviction of mine (and I don't care if you say I don't "have" to or not, I "choose" to), so pretending I'm allergic to all pork, shellfish, and other treif products will be tough over the long haul. On top of that, when the last kid leaves our home, my wife wants to kasher our kitchen and take a more serious approach to kashrut. Since I live with my wife (and I agree with her decision, by the way), I'll also be following that approach. I don't even begin to know how to explain this in a church setting without offending just about everyone.
  5. Lying: This actually encompasses all of the points I've already made because I'd have to do a considerable amount of lying to be able to operate within the parameters of what's expected in a church. Even keeping my mouth shut or forcing myself to stuff it with a ham sandwich is a form of lie. Why should I be compelled to lie in the house of God?
  6. Hypocrisy and worse: The single thing I can't swallow about the Church is replacement theology. While I've been repeatedly criticized by MJ/BE proponents of supporting replacement theology, that same group says I should attend a religious organization that's almost guaranteed to practice some version of this. I've recently been told by an MJ/BE proponent, that replacement theology or supersessionalism, isn't such a big deal in the church anymore. Maybe that's true in some churches, but my experience is that it's not universally true. I'm not coming home from Sunday school and telling my wife that my teacher says I replaced her in the covenant promises of God.
  7. Marriage: My wife is Jewish and even in terms of my current worship, she has to conceal certain items in our home when she has friends from shul over. My association in the "Messianic" world has tainted me as far as sharing any sort of worship with her at the Chabad synagogue. Imagine how much more difficult life would be like for her if I became a regular church attender. Adding to this, my personal "theology" if you will, has a lot of "Jewish elements". While I can never attend any of the Chabad Rabbi's classes, I really enjoy going over my wife's class material with her. It's really expanded my understanding of Judaism, and, in it's own way, my understanding of my wife and God.

There are additional issues. I know a couple (who attend a Messianic group about 25 or 30 miles away from where I live) who are intermarried. Like my family, the husband is a non-Jew and the wife is Jewish. In their case, they are both "Messianic" and in fact, her father is also a Messianic Jew (who lives in another state). Like my wife and I, they previously attended a church (a different one than my wife and I attended) and when the wife started exploring her Judaism more demonstratively (by lighting the Shabbat candles and abstaining from eating pork products), she was told to leave the church because she was "under the law". This was a very painful experience for the couple. They had many friends and strong ties with their church, but in that case, her Jewishness did not mix with their understanding of the love of the Jewish Messiah.

On a more personal level, like in my current worship venue, attending a church means I would be worshiping alone; that is to say, without my wife. We previously worshiped together in a church, a "Messianic" setting, and at the local Reform synagogue, but while I felt I "belonged" with the "Messianic" group, my wife was drawn toward the Chabad. Somewhere along the line, I'm not sure when, she gave up her faith in Yeshua and adopted a traditional Jewish viewpoint of Jesus which she currently maintains. It grieves me that we cannot worship God as a couple, but I can fully understand why she wouldn't step foot in any Messianic congregation, even one that held to the strict interpretation of Bilateral Ecclesiology.

The effect of my being "Messianic", for lack of a better term, is that I can no longer set foot in any Jewish synagogue, at least where people might know I'm "Messianic", not only because of how the Rabbi and congregation would react to me, but because it would damage my wife's relationships. Beyond my congregation there is a much larger, though loosely associated, collection of Gentile "Messianics" in my area who, for some reason or another, attend services and classes at the local synagogues, I can't take the risk of going and being recognized. My wife has gone so far as to say that, even if I were to give up the Messianic congregation, I still shouldn't attend any local Jewish gathering.

Attending a church, in spite of everything I said above, while it wouldn't spark as severe a response from the local synagogues, would still require that my wife and I worship apart. It wouldn't erase my "Messianic" associations, so not only is worshiping at a church "problematic", worshiping in the synagogue with my wife is also not an option.

But there's more.

Assume I attended a church. Sooner or later, people are going to find out I'm married and ask about my wife. I could lie and say she's in a coma and is "unavailable" to attend services with me, but I'd probably tell the truth and say she's Jewish and prefers to worship with other Jews. I don't doubt that, because she's "unsaved", someone out of sincere kindness would say they'd pray for her salvation and return to Jesus.

But she doesn't want them to pray for her and I support my wife in her pursuit of her Jewish identity and relationships. It's just a world I can never share. Kind of like the world of Messianism. How would that go over in a church?

For over ten years, I thought I'd found a "spiritual home", but now that has been put in a state of uncertainty. I have to either determine that I should stay where I am "because it's where I've been planted" and to tell the Messianic Jewish world to go take a flying leap, or, out of respect, I can leave my current congregation and exit all of the conversations in the Messianic blogosphere.

Gene suggested that I read a blog written by FFOZ founder Boaz Michael called Respect the Work that God is Doing. I did. The blog post is made up significantly of quotes from a Pastor Boaz knows who, in addition to being aligned with the goals of Messianic Judaism and not being supersessionalist, believes his work as a Pastor is in the church. I think Gene was telling me that the church isn't all that bad, some churches have goals and perspectives that generally align with Messianism, and that I am being unfair to churches by holding the attitudes and experiences I've talked about earlier in this article.

I don't have an issue with what the Pastor said on Boaz's blog. I believe that many, perhaps most, Christians are supposed to be in a church setting. I don't have a problem with anyone who feels this way. I can only say that I don't feel like I'm supposed to be in a church setting. However, that attitude usually gets me branded as a malcontent or otherwise as a person hostile to Christianity, regardless of how untrue it happens to be. Here's an example from Boaz's blog quoting the Pastor that makes a special point:
There is a story about Ghandi that says one day while he was reading the gospels he was intrigued by Jesus, So he decided to check him out. So on a Sunday he went to a Church in South Africa where he was living at the time and was stopped at the door. He was told that this church was only for white, English people and if he wanted a "black" church there was one a mile down the road. Ghandi wrote, "I would be a Christian today, if it were not for the Christians." I am beginning to feel that way about those in the Hebrew roots movement.
In essence, based on that story and particularly the Pastor's last sentence, my personal stance is interpreted as one where I am not acting as the Jewish Messiah would have me act, because I don't feel comfortable in a church setting.

Conclusion

So now what? I don't know...well, yes I do. I just don't want to admit it.

Part of me just wants to cut ties with the Messianic world, both locally with "my" congregation and with the Messianic blogosphere. While I can't comply with the desires of Messianic Judaism and return to a church setting, I will at least be one less splinter in their eye. There are some problems with this decision, however.

Right before Yom Kippur last year (2010/5771), I gave the board of directors at my congregation the opportunity to accept my resignation. Because I was "unequally yoked" and in a position of leadership and authority, I felt "compromised" relative to the Bible's directives regarding leaders in the "church". While the board understood my concerns, because we are a small congregation and resource-limited, and because I provide a significant amount of services to the congregation (teaching, blogging, website creation and management, transportation of the elderly, organization of the food drive, and so forth), they said they really wanted me to stay.

Since I, unlike many Gentile-driven Messianic groups, require that any one leader in our group, especially me, be under the authority of a larger governing body within the congregation, I accepted their decision. I stayed and continued to provide for the congregation in the places where I was needed.

I also promised to teach a class starting at the end of January and going (probably) through May. It should be (just my opinion) an interesting class and a lot of people, in and outside of our congregation are looking forward to it. I don't want to back out at the last second just because of how I feel and how others feel about me.

I didn't anticipate writing this particular blog post for another five or six months, but there seemed to be no other way to adequately respond to Gene's comments.The cat's out of the bag, now.

I want to apologize to those people who may be following this blog and, even though you don't comment, read and are supported by its content. I feel like I've let you down by even writing this post, but one of the things this blog is designed to do is to be my personal reflection and response to issues of faith and relationship. That means, I don't pull punches and I don't cut corners. I'm not here to be "politically correct" and while I've tried to be civil, polite, and respectful, I'm not going to lie. This blog isn't just a series of essays on theological topics, but also a record of my journey along the path and in search of the "light of the world".

I also want to apologize again to anyone reading this who is a Christian and attends a church. It is not my intention to show you, Jesus, or God the Father any disrespect. This missive is completely my responsibility and my expression of the thoughts and challenges I've been facing for the past six months in what I originally called fractured fellowship. As it stands, I'm not the one to build the bridge, apply the super glue, or wrap up the relationship with duct tape. As Gene previously said, I guess I have no right to even address issues of Christian/(Messianic) Jewish relationships if I have no affiliation with a church. That seems to be a condition that keeps hitting me in the face again and again.

Like I said earlier, I was hoping for a miracle to occur within the next five or six months that would somehow resolve the various levels of dissonance I'm experiencing, but I don't know if that miracle will ever occur. Doors are slamming shut all around me but despite that, I'll fulfill  and complete my current commitments. When that's done, I'll look and see if God opened even a single door for me. If there's an opening, I'll go through it and accept the consequences for everything I've done. If not, then I'll follow the exit sign and my relationship with God will become solely between the two of us.

Future Imperfect

Will I continue to blog? Probably, if for no other reason than because this blog is the most direct method I have to express the reflection of my mind, emotions, and spirit in operation.

That's the best I can do for now.

17 comments:

derek4messiah.wordpress.com said...

James:

I hope, as you've read my material lately, that you would agree I'm a BE guy who affirms a Judaically informed congregation like yours. I don't think you "should" leave or quit online community with Messianics and Hebrew Roots folks (Judeo-Christians, in my lingo). We like having you around.

Now, I do want to raise the issue and hope that the ahavat Yisrael of non-Jews in Judeo-Christian / Hebrew Roots congregations will lead them to differentiate themselves from Jews and respect the unique calling of Israel. I'd hope that people who believe in Israel's continuing election would not want to usurp that place and become de facto Jews to all around them.

But I think Judeo-Christian worship is a valid tradition and offers some good role model to churches in other traditions, especially, as you say, in abandoning supersessionism (replacement) and anti-nomianism (anti-Law).

note: I defined the terms for readers who might not know them, but I know you, James, know them.

Derek Leman

James said...

I was hoping for the possibility of a "middle ground" type of congregation that could be a bridge and provide solid and sane teachings to Gentiles in "the movement". It would provide an alternative to a lot of the "nuttiness" that exists in some One Law congregations and help facilitate conversations with both BE/MJ and the traditional church (a fair number of the folks who attend my congregation also occasionally and even regularly attend church).

That said, you seem to be the only BE proponent making such a suggestion and I'm probably not the right person to respond to your statements on this matter. What do other BE supporters and participants, particularly those directly administering the MJTI, think of your proposal? Their input would be valuable at this juncture.

Dan Benzvi said...

I told all this 6 months ago. You could have saved yourself all the time and agravation. They don't want you, period. all Gene's and Derek's mambo jumbo is just a facad.

Come to Vegas, we will accept you with open arms as EQUAL, because this is what you are in God's eyes.

James said...

Vegas? I had no idea you were in Las Vegas, Dan. I lived there from the fourth grade through my first couple of years of college.

I haven't been back in years, since my parents retired to Utah, but I do keep in touch with one friend from high school who still lives there.

If I'm ever planning a visit, I'll let you know.

As far as the rest goes, I'd like to hear what other BE supporters have to say directly.

Gene Shlomovich said...

James, you have laid out your case well, but managed to personalize our discussion to the nth degree. Also, you made some absolute statements which I must correct, such as:

"the non-Jew spouse would be allowed to attend."

There no such thing as "allowed to attend". Nobody is barred from attending (unless they are disruptive), even if a specific community is not built around their needs.

"I hold Gene Shlomovich in high regard and I even thought we could have a friendship as time passed. I know it looks like I'm picking on him, but he's really representing a large organizational opinion that is gathering momentum in the Messianic movement"

James, I only speak for myself. I do not purport to speak for the "Movement", even though I hope to see a place where Jews who follow Messiah can truly live as Jews. Your fears of an immanent Jewish-centric Messianic Jewish Movement are largely unfounded because there are so few Jews in the movement and even fewer who are young and determined enough to see this through.

"Doors are slamming shut all around me but despite that, I'll fulfill and complete my current commitments."

James, I don't want to minimize your feelings, but is that really so? I think most MJs you've encountered have been very gracious with you. I've said many times that an MJ/BE style synagogue would benefit greatly from your presence. MJ/BE is not about exclusion, it's about priorities and purpose. Yeshua had priorities, especially when it came to Jewish people (e.g. "let the children eat first"). The priorities didn't prevent him from reaching out to others or even at times holding others in higher esteem that those who were his priority.

MJ/BE advocates have been at the forefront of rebuilding long severed bridges. Most bridges are built from opposite ends at the same time so that they can meet in the middle. But to do so, one must have a willing partner who will abide by the rules of constructions.

James said...

There no such thing as "allowed to attend". Nobody is barred from attending (unless they are disruptive), even if a specific community is not built around their needs.

Most ideals are expressed in absolute terms and BE is an ideal. In an ideal BE world, Jews would attend Messianic synagogues and (Gentile) Christians would attend church. In reality, it wouldn't work out that way 100% of the time, but the ideal is still the goal.

James, I only speak for myself. I do not purport to speak for the "Movement", even though I hope to see a place where Jews who follow Messiah can truly live as Jews. Your fears of an immanent Jewish-centric Messianic Jewish Movement are largely unfounded because there are so few Jews in the movement and even fewer who are young and determined enough to see this through.

It's not a "fear" so much as a disappointment or frustration. I don't say it's a bad thing for traditionally observant Jews in Messianism to want and to build religious communities to service their own populations, nor to I think it's a bad thing for those synagogues to enter into dialogue with the church to promote better relationships. But I do think the ideal needs "adjustment" if the only Gentile Christians that are "encouraged" to enter into a "bilateral" relationship with MJ/BE people/synagogues/organizations are church members.

Yes, I know you don't represent MJ/BE in any formal capacity, but any "movement" is made up of the individuals who belong to the movement. I've noticed individual variations between you, Yahnatan, and Derek, for example, as BE proponents but there is an underlying thread based on the author or authors of BE (and although Kinzer wrote the book as an individual, I believe that it's with the support of the MJTI organization) original intent. I'm not sure Kinzer (although there's no way for me to really know) intended for BE to become an actual theology in Messianic Judaism, but the idea has taken on a life of its own.

As far as "doors slamming shut", well...yes. If, as you previously said, that the desire of BE for Gentiles is that none of them have any desire to be part of a Jewish congregation, then, in order to comply with that desire and enter into relationship, I would have to change a "desire". Well, that's overstated. I don't necessarily desire to belong to a Jewish congregation, but I do desire to have interactions with said groups, to take my ability to learn outside my own narrow realm and into a larger world, and to be able to carry that learning and perspective to others who don't have access to such a world.

I can't do that in a church and besides. As I said in this blog, the issue isn't just with BE, it's with my alternatives should I leave my current congregation (which seems inevitable at this point...it's just a matter of when). They are not abundant.

As far as your comment about "building bridges", I believe you previously said something like, Gentiles in "the movement" should reconcile or repair their relationship with the church before addressing any lack of relationship with Messianic Judaism. That would seem to imply that people like me should not even attempt to build "our end" of the bridge until we go back to a church and make ourselves at home (and I'm not sure how to otherwise "repair" my relationship to the church and yet "attend" a Messianic or "Judaically informed" congregation).

What I don't want to do is to spin my wheels endlessly. I need to either find a way to get traction (so to speak) and start moving forward (and thus passing that progress along to my current congregation) or to admit that I'm on a dead end path and to change direction.

James said...

(continued from previous comment...I had to cut it in two for length)

As far as me "personalizing" these discussions, I write these posts on my personal blog. The reason I created it was that I felt that exploring my own issues on my congregation's blog was unfair and a misappropriation of my congregations's name. While what I discuss here can and probably should have implications beyond just me, I am writing from my own perspective. If I wanted to present theological ideas and concepts dispassionately, I'd use my congregation's blog.

In any event, I'm sorry if I've caused you or anyone offense. This was not my intention but, as I've said previously, I did create this blog as a place where I could "let my hair down" and express how I personally experience all of these issues.

Rabbi Joshua said...

James,

I am a little surprised that no ones else (particularly Derek) commented to the fact that you have mis-represented what Bilateral Ecclesiology really is - which is not "you have your camp we have ours."

Rather, it is about mutual blessing! So although you raise some great points it does not carry the same weight if founded on a faulty presupposition.

James said...

I am a little surprised that no ones else (particularly Derek) commented to the fact that you have mis-represented what Bilateral Ecclesiology really is - which is not "you have your camp we have ours."

Rather, it is about mutual blessing! So although you raise some great points it does not carry the same weight if founded on a faulty presupposition.


Actually, as it's commonly (but perhaps sometimes unfairly) presented, BE is largely about a separation of "camps" relative to Messianic Jews vs. non-Jewish Christians. However, to get a flavor for how I'd "re-write" BE if I had my druthers, you'll have to read the blog post I posted after this one ("Overlap").

You may again say that I'm "misrepresenting" BE in relation to Kinzer's original vision published in PMJ, but if PMJ/BE isn't able to adapt and adjust but instead, must be taken as inflexible "gospel", so to speak, how can anyone but the book's author speak to its application and how it potentially, could affect many lives?

By the way, thanks for visiting and commenting. I know I'm not everybody's favorite person in the "Messianic" blogosphere, but I believe that respectful debate is healthy. Sometimes we learn more through disagreement and by questioning and examining assumptions. Just my opinion.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time and stopping by.

Rabbi Joshua said...

James,

Regarding your comment, "I know I'm not everybody's favorite person in the "Messianic" blogosphere ... " I just want to clarify that I do not feel that way. And if I have ever conveyed such an attitude than I want to greatly apologize. Rather, even if there are areas where we might see differently I have always found you and your blog thoughtful, respectful, and articulate. I consider it an honor to be a fellow-blogger with those like you who have can articulate their position with such "menschkeit."

I agree that Kinzer's proposal must be adapted to a 'real life' community(ies). I just felt that maybe you were a little unfair in your description of Bilateral Ecclesiology (BE).

With that said, Kinzer's proposal (which is not entirely original, but expanded for MJ particulars), is hardly all-encompassing and primarily deals with Messianic Jews and the established wider Church. As you have previously noted, what he does not particularly address is the question of non-Jews involved in MJ. Partly because that would be a whole different book.

As such, in your disclaimer toward Gene, you state:

"But he's really representing a large organizational opinion that is gathering momentum in the Messianic movement."

As one actually involved in the organizational structures of Messianic Judaism, I don't see Gene's (or other similar positions) actually reflected on the ground.

In reality the UMJC, and especially the MJAA and AMC, all welcome, value and appreciate the participation of non-Jews within our organizations and congregations.

There are individuals wrestling with what the details look like, but it does not change the fact that overall - we all agree there is a valued role for non-Jews within MJ. Truthfully, as we all have stated, there are also individuals (including Jews) for whom MJ is not a good fit.

And many more who find themselves sort-of in-between.

Anyway, I just want to emphasize that I do not see MJ going in the direction of not having non-Jewish participation (which is not even a reality considering the demographics of the Jewish community today). There may be discussions right now about what that looks like regarding life-cycle and halachic matters, but as always non-Jews have been and will continue to be welcome participants (and co-laborers) in the building of a vibrant movement for Yeshua within the Jewish community.

James said...

Regarding your comment, "I know I'm not everybody's favorite person in the "Messianic" blogosphere ... " I just want to clarify that I do not feel that way. And if I have ever conveyed such an attitude than I want to greatly apologize. Rather, even if there are areas where we might see differently I have always found you and your blog thoughtful, respectful, and articulate. I consider it an honor to be a fellow-blogger with those like you who have can articulate their position with such "menschkeit."

The Internet and the blogosphere is an imperfect way to try to understand people due to the nature and limits of text communication. One day, we can all enter our own "holo-generator" rooms and appear to each other around a virtual "round table" and hash this sort of stuff out.

I also never know who may be reading what I wrote (unless people actually comment), so I may be "communicating" with specific individuals without my awareness.

Anyway, I just want to emphasize that I do not see MJ going in the direction of not having non-Jewish participation (which is not even a reality considering the demographics of the Jewish community today). There may be discussions right now about what that looks like regarding life-cycle and halachic matters, but as always non-Jews have been and will continue to be welcome participants (and co-laborers) in the building of a vibrant movement for Yeshua within the Jewish community.

The center of my goals for these conversations is just to keep the lines of communication open between the various involved parties so that we can share our differences. I don't expect or desire a unified, homogenized, pureed, "oneness" of people. I do hope for a unified sense of purpose among the many and varied parts of the body of Messiah.

Thanks.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"As one actually involved in the organizational structures of Messianic Judaism, I don't see Gene's (or other similar positions) actually reflected on the ground."

I concur with Joshua - very few MJ's at the leadership level within MJTI/MJAA/AMC I know hold similar positions to mine (although some have expressed it to me privately). Some leaders and thinkers outside of those structures, in Israel and U.S., hold similar positions. So, James, nothing to worry about, even if you suspect the worst possible intent behind certain ideas.

But even so, as I have reiterated many times over - I do not nor have I ever advocated exclusion of Gentiles from Messianic Jewish Movement. I do advocate for Jewish majority messianic synagogues, but I don't foresee this even that happening in the immediate term given the current leadership, mindset and demographics (in U.S. at least), except for individual and perhaps unaffiliated congregations.

Rabbi Joshua said...

James - Thank you for your response.

Gene - Regarding your comment:

"I do advocate for Jewish majority messianic synagogues, but I don't foresee this even that happening in the immediate term given the current leadership, mindset and demographics (in U.S. at least), except for individual and perhaps unaffiliated congregations."

Just to clarify, there are actually a number of "Jewish majority" affiliated congregations. This is true both in the MJAA and UMJC. I can attest to several such congregations just within the UMJC.

Dan Benzvi said...

"In reality the UMJC, and especially the MJAA and AMC, all welcome, value and appreciate the participation of non-Jews within our organizations and congregations. "

Because they have no choice. Majority of Gentiles within MJ is a fact on the ground. One cannot put the fethers back into the pillow after they were scattred.

Which of course shows how inept is the dream of BE.

Rabbi Joshua said...

Dan,

Please forgive me, but it sure seems as though you are always so negative. Especially for someone not formally involved in the mainstream Messianic Movement. When was the last time you attended a Messianic Jewish congregation affiliated with the UMJC or MJAA? When was the last time you attended a UMJC or MJAA conference? Particularly a National Conference?

Your constant cynicism is getting old. It is easy to play "arm-chair critic" and rally against everything and everyone. Meanwhile, many of us are working very hard at creating something that is empowering and welcoming to all its participants - both Jews and non-Jews, while at the same time building a community with integrity and continuity.

Dan Benzvi said...

Rebyosh,

If you are willing to contact me privately: rabdan@cox.net I have some revelations for you an far as integrity goes. There are some things that even I would not put up in public so not To embbarrase "mainstream" MJ....

As for your question, yes, I was an elder in one of them "mainstream" congregations.

Rabbi Joshua said...

Dan,

I will certainly email you. I do not claim the Messianic Movement is perfect. I do not deny we have faults and that there is plenty of room for improvement. But I still have not given up. And what keeps me going is many of my fellow colleagues who have sacrificed their lives for the sake of bringing the message of Yeshua to our Jewish people and creating a Jewish movement for Yeshua.

If I may ask, how long has it been since you were an elder in that congregation?