Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. -1 John 3:4
For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath. -Acts 15:21
Back to Basics Tour, Part 3
I suppose you could say this blog post is a reprise of an article I wrote back in July called Is the Bible for Christians. I was trying to be ironic in the use of the title, since most Christians wouldn't think twice about whether or not the Bible is relevant in their (our) lives.
As in the first two parts of this series, I'm trying to establish some things that everyone who worships along the different points of the continuum of disciples in the Jewish Messiah can agree upon. It's been over 24 hours since I posted part 2 in this series, The Presence of Faith. Since comments of disagreement are very prompt to arrive and yet the comments section remains empty, I'll have to assume that everyone in the Messianic, One Law, Two-House and traditional Christian groups agrees with my point that we must all have a kind of faith in order to be "branches attached to the vine."
The point that I'm trying to make in today's blog is that the Bible is something we all have in common. I'll even take it a step further, just to add some spice, and say that the Torah is something we have in common.
That should inspire a few comments since Christians will disagree because "the Law is dead" and Messianic Jews (at least those on the more conservative end of the continuum) will disagree because the Torah is only for the Jews.
While I'd expect One Law and Two-House proponents to agree, based on their belief that grafted in Gentiles are obligated to the same 613 commandments as their Messianic Jewish counterparts, there may be another way of looking at this.
When I concluded my What Did Jesus Teach series, one of my findings was that it is impossible to understand the teachings of the Jewish Messiah and the Apostles who learned from him unless you have some grounding in the Torah. After all, Yeshua (Jesus) taught like the Jewish Rabbi that he was/is and thus, we can't understand the full measure of what he taught if we don't learn it from within that context.
Like it or not, for Christians to understand the teachings of Christ, they can't isolate themselves from the first two-thirds of the Bible (i.e. the "Old Testament").
We've seen in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, and when Paul wrote that letter, the only written scripture in existence was the Tanakh or what Christianity calls the Old Testament. However, the very interesting comment James makes at the end of the Jerusalem letter in Acts 15:21, specifically references Gentile disciples of the Messiah and prominently mentions the Torah or "the Law". Why?
One Law proponents say this is evidence that Gentile disciples were supposed to learn and obey the full list of Torah commandments and, for a long time, I thought this was the only way to interpret this verse. Recently though, I've come up with another way of looking at it.
“And if he wants to do [the additional commandments] while saying that it was commanded to them we dont allow him to do [them] rather if he does them in order to obtain reward like one who is not commanded but does [we allow it], and thus our master was precise and wrote “in order to obtain reward”. Nevertheless regarding the commandments that require holiness and purity like Tefilin, Torah scrolls and Mezuzah I argue to be stringent that they should not allow them to do them.”This is just my opinion, but it's possible that, with Gentiles being brought into Messianic discipleship but not required to fulfill all of the Written commandments, oral traditions, or halachah, they (we) would still be permitted to voluntarily respond to as many of the Torah mitzvot (perhaps within certain limits) as we desired to take on, but that, not taking on all of the commandments, we would not be sinning. Again, it's just "a theory", but frankly, so is every other interpretation of the Jerusalem letter and especially its famous "last line". Much of how we determine our responsibilities to God are based on how we interpret the Bible. If there were only one way to interpret God's word, we would only have one religion, denomination, or sect. And we know that's not the case.
The Radbaz, in his commentary to the Rambam
from Torah and Non-Jews
at Christian for Moses.
I also previously quoted a source stating the following:
Let’s first examine this from a purely rabbinic perspective. Neither in the Talmud nor in any of the early rabbinic works do we find a prohibition against Gentiles wearing tefillin. There is a passage in the Tosefta that instructs Jews not to sell tefillin to Gentiles (t.Avodah Zarah 2:4), and as some scholars point out, this may actually indicate that tefillin were worn by some non-Jews. We also find the example in the midrash and the Jerusalem Talmud of Rabban Gamaliel’s Gentile slave Tobi wearing tefillin.Assuming for the moment that this is a statement of fact, then we have a precident for a non-Jew performing a worship practice that otherwise would be considered "strictly Jewish".
I'm not trying to shove "Gentile observance of the Torah" down your throat, but we can see that it is at least a supportable position, though a minority opinion in Judaism, and it does speak to one reason, beyond what I stated earlier, why Christians can be allowed to read and study the same exact Bible as the Jews, right down to the five books of Moses.
Do Gentile Christians and Messianic Jews (and everyone else along the continuum of congregations and theologies) share the same Bible? Yes. Do all of the parts of the Bible apply to all of those populations? No. An obvious example are those portions of the Bible which outline the duties of the kohens and more specifically the High Priest. Only a Jew who is a direct descendent of Aaron can be a High Priest, so most Jews (let alone non-Jews) can read these portions with the understanding that the commandments related to this population do not apply to them.
On the other hand, it's not valueless for a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin to read those parts of the Torah having to do with the Levitical priesthood because of their rich symbolism and the history of God's actions among His chosen people. I don't think it's valueless for the rest of us either.
So beyond the sheer history lesson offered by the Torah for Christians, we see teachings in morality, images of how God interacts with human beings, and the laying of the essential foundation for understanding the words of the Messiah, all from studying the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. Christianity's New Testament is built on the foundation of all of the scriptures that come before it and we ignore or marginalize that foundation at our own peril.
Like it or not, we share the same Bible...all of us, if we call ourselves disciples of the Jewish Messiah.
The road is long and often, we travel in the dark, ignoring the light of the world. Look for the lamp who lights your path or you may become lost in the dark forever.
"A Jew never gives up. We're here to bring Mashiach, we will settle for nothing less." -Harav Yitzchak Ginsburgh
60 comments:
An obvious example are those portions of the Bible which outline the duties of the kohens and more specifically the High Priest. Only a Jew who is a direct descendent of Aaron can be a High Priest, so most Jews (let alone non-Jews) can read these portions with the understanding that the commandments related to this population do not apply to them.
I know that examples such as this come up in some quarters, but I think several things are missing. Every family in Israel, although they may not be Levi or from the family of Aaron, could be potentially raising the mother of the next High Priest. Likewise the commandments regarding women - all men marry one. The particular commandments that seem to "not apply" because I am not a woman and I am not a descendant of Aaron, still have application - not just passing fancy.
Extrapolating that concept out to "Jewish" commandments and "Gentile" Noachide commandments begs the question: should we also have black-haired vs blond-haired commandments. My mother's family is important, so should her clan have commandments that protect her unique identity?
No, in contradistinction, the Torah makes the point that the revealed righteousness of the King of the Universe is for all His children. And we only have one identity with Him.
Thanks for the comment, Rick. I was beginning to think I'd become invisible...or at least my blog.
I was using the "not apply" example to illustrate to MJ proponents that I wasn't trying to "invade their space" but rather trying to make a point that Torah study has value to all believers, not just Jewish believers.
If Jewish and Christian believers in the Jewish Messiah can't agree that we have *anything* in common, how can we say we are all disciples of the Jewish Messiah? There must be *some* common ground for discussion.
After the past week or two where division and conflict have been emphasized on the blogosphere, we need to get back to center.
After the past week or two where division and conflict have been emphasized on the blogosphere, we need to get back to center.
I agree. Enough spicy food. Time for meat and potatoes.
"No, in contradistinction, the Torah makes the point that the revealed righteousness of the King of the Universe is for all His children. And we only have one identity with Him."
Rick, please read 1 Corinthians 12:14-26 carefully. There are many parts in the Body, each with its own name, each placed in its own area of the Body, and each with its own function and care. The eye will not fare very well if it tries to catch a flying baseball instead of the hand it was meant for.
I agree. Enough spicy food. Time for meat and potatoes.
Agreed. My gastritis (not a metaphor) has been tearing me up inside lately.
Rick, please read 1 Corinthians 12:14-26 carefully. There are many parts in the Body, each with its own name, each placed in its own area of the Body, and each with its own function and care. The eye will not fare very well if it tries to catch a flying baseball instead of the hand it was meant for.
Conversely, all these different and varied body parts are still part of the same body, not part of two separate bodies. The purpose of this blog series is to identify what makes us alike. We have just tons of material in the Messianic blogosphere about what makes us different, distinct, alien, and apart.
"The purpose of this blog series is to identify what makes us alike."
James, I would like to believe that between me and you we have accomplished just that. Why can't this be done with the others? I would love to! But I think you know the reasons well.
I believe that between the two of us, we've come to an understanding, but we're only two people. There's a struggle between Messianic Judaism and the church to form a similar communications conduit as well as people like me, who have an OL background.
Something you said on your own blog intrigued me and is related to my current topic:
I have many MANY non-Jews who have been nothing but a blessing – including those who have taken on many aspects of Torah. Torah is not the problem – it’s the supersessionist attitude.
Say more about non-Jews who have taken on many aspects of Torah, please. I'll ask the same question on your blog.
"While I'd expect One Law and Two-House proponents to agree, based on their belief that grafted in Gentiles are obligated to the same 613 commandments as their Messianic Jewish counterparts, there may be another way of looking at this."
Sometimes I believe we're approaching this from a black and white perspective. Are we gentiles obligated? Where are the verses that outline gentiles are now obligated to the covenant as the Jews are? By what means does one become obligated to the law, belief in G-d? The more I read and understand the prophet writings (a very slow process for my brain to digest) the more I realize it's not as much an obligation as it is a necessary tool for now and the future. I feel as if right now is the time I have to prepare (that means Torah study as well) for what may potentially happen. Therefore observing the law isn't so much about obligation as it is preparation. Isn't that what it should be about anyways?
Therefore observing the law isn't so much about obligation as it is preparation. Isn't that what it should be about anyways?
I'm sure Gene's upcoming response here will offer some illumination. I agree that we have a tendency to think and talk in black and white terms, but the positions of each "sect" that exists in the "Messianic movement" tends to have very definite viewpoints.
I'm moving toward the position that Gentile Torah observance is something that isn't designed to be approached in one fell swoop. Some of the rabbinic sources I've read (and quoted) indicate that both Jews and Gentiles can perform the same behaviors but with different motivations. I don't have a complete handle on the whole picture yet (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor) and I may never quite get to a definitive point in my understanding this side of the Messiah.
On the other hand, since I've made a personal decision to formally exit the "Messianic movement" as of this summer, any conclusion I come to may be moot...at least as far as anyone besides me is concerned.
"since I've made a personal decision to formally exit the "Messianic movement"
I think that EVERYONE should exist the Messianic Movement, scrap it, start all over, or move on!
I think that EVERYONE should exist the Messianic Movement, scrap it, start all over, or move on!
Unfortunately, a text-only communications environment doesn't always allow me to understand everything people write, Gene. I'm not sure I'm getting your message. What are you saying?
"I'm not sure I'm getting your message. What are you saying?"
I am simply saying that the whole thing (the "Movement") needs a reset/reboot because right now it's a mess.
Glad I asked for clarification. Thought you were saying I needed a reboot because I was a mess. ;-)
Not that you would be entirely wrong saying that.
"I am simply saying that the whole thing (the "Movement") needs a reset/reboot because right now it's a mess."
Oh I don't know, it may seem that way currently because of the topics going on lately in the blogosphere we read in, it's not necessarily that way in other spheres.
But these questions simply won't go away, no matter how many times we reboot or restart.
Where are the verses that outline gentiles are now obligated to the covenant as the Jews are
@Benicho: you are joking right? You have to redefine ger to get it to say the opposite. In every important area, ger and native-born are side by side in obligation.
@Rick
Well, go on, show me where scripture says that gentiles are now bound and obligated to the covenant.
Rick, I don't think the "Ger" argument can be used to support Jews and Gentiles having an equal responsibility to the Torah commandments. I wrote quite a bit about it on my congregation's blog. The "mixed multitude" of Gerim would have assimilated into the Children of Israel after several generations. It doesn't describe a situation relative to Gentiles becoming Messianic disciples and remaining Gentiles.
Go look every reference to ger/gerim. You might be surprised at what you find. And remember the majority were given in the first generation in the Wilderness, not generations later.
Yes, I've been round the circuit before. From FFOZ to Joseph Goode (interesting collaberation between them if I do say so), Rambam to Resnick. You have to force it. When the text can not speak for itself in 20+ places you have making of contrivance.
"You have to force it. When the text can not speak for itself in 20+ places you have making of contrivance."
You MUST be speaking of the One-Law invention, Rick. Nothing else in MJ can be described by the above statement.
Go look every reference to ger/gerim. You might be surprised at what you find. And remember the majority were given in the first generation in the Wilderness, not generations later.
Ironically, I taught on this very point last Shabbat. Yes, the first generation in the wilderness were accepted and started to operate under the Torah given at Sinai, but according to Deuteronomy 23:7-8, only the third generation and thereafter would be considered "Children of Israel". The first two generations of Gerim would still be Gentile but attached to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The reason this doesn't work as an illustration of why Gentile Messianic disciples are *obligated* to the Torah commandments in the same way as Jews is those generations of Gerim fully attached themselves to the Israelites and their God with the intention that the third generation be fully accepted into the chosen people as "converts", if you will.
It doesn't apply because we Messianic disciples retain our Gentile identity. We're not on the path to have our grandchildren convert to Judaism based on our observance of Torah. What I believe we are seeing, based on Deuteronomy, is the first formalized method of Gentiles converting to Judaism.
Granted, you don't have to agree with my conclusions, but the mixed multitude still eventually assimilated in to the Israelites and lost their Gentile distinctiveness forever. That's not required for you and me and Paul make that clear in Galatians.
"That's not required for you and me and Paul make that clear in Galatians."
No only assimilation is into Israel and Judaism not required, in the Messianic Kingdom nations retain their respective identities AND become "people of G-d" along side Israel:
"In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. HaShem will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.” (Isaiah 19:24-25)
You see, the Messianic Age will bring with it the corporate redemption of the nations - just as Israel itself will be corporately redeemed (I know, it's hard to disassociate our thinking from the American Protestant individualism).
James,
You are in error. Instead of thinking in terms of Jews and Gentiles, which the BE crowd wants you to do, start thinking in terms of the covenant, and covenant membership.
The evidence is scarce and vague regarding gentile obligation to the law.
There's no doubt in my mind that Torah is something I must continue to follow as I believe it to be the key for G-d's people during the times of tribulation (if I live to see them). To approach the Torah as an obligation somewhat detracts from the intent of keeping it as a gentile. Out of obligation is not what got me here, and I see no evidence that out of obligation that I must continue on, but rather genuine love and longing for truth.
I understand the urgency behind the OL teachings and, to an extent, why they believe we are obligated. It simply doesn't fit, and for good reason. Should we want to keep Torah as gentiles? Well yes, I believe we should. Loving G-d and obeying His laws should be of utmost priority. The moment you begin teaching that Torah is an obligation to gentiles is when you start seeing lights switch off and things get ugly. If G-d had intended that we all be obligated for having faith in Him don't you think it would be thoroughly outlined SOMEWHERE in all the scripture?
You are in error. Instead of thinking in terms of Jews and Gentiles, which the BE crowd wants you to do, start thinking in terms of the covenant, and covenant membership.
As far as the "Ger issue" is concerned, I am (which is the question I was answering). If there's an *obligation* for Messianic Gentile disciples to obey all of the Torah along with "the natural branches", the justification will have to come from some other source.
"Obligation", "invitation"? These are theological constructs that obscure the language of Scripture. Why not "obey"? "If you love me, obey Me. If you love Me, keep my commandments." Only the faithless ask, "Which ones?"
@James, as for "identity" (another over used word), what do you think Paul meant when he referred to them as "former Gentiles"?
The notion that members of the Covenant are to maintain distinct "identities" within the Covenant is created out of whole cloth by BE and its supporters.
Your observation that the gerim in the Wilderness lost their former "identity" is precisely what I am saying. The only reason it is different in some people's minds today is that they have been distracted by the theological constructs of others.
Being subsumed into the Covenant people, with that one identity is what Ephesians 2-3 is speaking of.
I think I am getting it…. God is making one homogenous people.
Part of the problem I have with all this is the question, after the Messiah came and grafted us all in, what makes a Jewish person a Jewish person? I know Paul said "neither Jew or Greek" but he also said "neither male nor female", yet when I look at my wife, I notice obvious differences in form and function between the two of us.
It's as if God deleted His promise that the Children of Israel would always be a people before Him and instead, gave that promise to all of the Messianics, Jews and Gentiles alike. God said that Israel would always be a people before Him numerous times, including in Leviticus 26:12.
@Rick
""Obligation", "invitation"? These are theological constructs that obscure the language of Scripture. Why not "obey"? "If you love me, obey Me. If you love Me, keep my commandments." Only the faithless ask, "Which ones?"
I almost agree with you here. Although I disagree that obligation is a theological construct. The Israelites that came out of Egypt entered a covenant/pact (refer to Exodus 24:3). One would assume that when you enter a covenant with someone (especially G-d) that it is your obligation to uphold your end of the deal.
So what is the problem here? One moment you're telling us how we're no different than the Jews (which is not true), the next you're telling us we should be keeping these because we love G-d. This seems to be the overarching doctrinal issue that OL proponents continue to hit the wall on.
No, we are not Jews. Yes, we believe keeping Torah is something we should all strive for and do. I don't think there are any here that are against keeping Torah or teaching it. Since this is a heart issue (obeying G-d and loving G-d as you mentioned) then what good is it to tell someone they're now part of a covenant their fathers didn't enter? You're trying to say this isn't a doctrinal issue while simultaneously supporting your stance with doctrinal issues.
If this isn't a doctrinal issue as you say then leave it be. If this a heart issue then all the doctrinal points do no good.
At some point we have to wonder if we're creating disciples by convincing people they're now Jewish. The problem is that you get ill-informed people causing a mess amongst Messianic circles. This is the realization that many people who oppose OL have come to.
@James
"It's as if God deleted His promise that the Children of Israel would always be a people before Him and instead, gave that promise to all of the Messianics, Jews and Gentiles alike."
I don't believe that to be true, this is why so much hangs on Isaiah 56: 6-7. Obviously there will be gentiles that cling to the covenant. If we were simply absorbed why would those verses specify that there are gentiles that cling to the law?
We can work this issue from the onther end of the Bible too. Yeshua told his disciples in Mark "Pray that your flight may not be in winter, or on a Sabbath..."
Yes, he was speaking to a Jewish audience. But - by referring to the Sabbath in a future tense, he obviously expects at least the Jewish people to observe the Sabbath in the way he did. THIS flies in the face of all of the Christian doctrines I know of. That being said, where an I (a Gentile) supposed to worship? I'm not the kind of guy who can get over issues like that.
Now, I would imagine Yeshua would want all believers, Jew or Gentile, to keep Sabbath. Not sure the 2 Sabbath observances should mirror each other to the last detail, but there should be a Sabbath for us Gentiles no less.
In trying to craft an adequate response to this conversation, I had to write yet another blog post this morning.
@James
I know of something you may be interested in listening to. It speaks to the heart of this problem and explains some peripheral questions. http://www.truth2u.org/2010/07/3rd-hour-brad-scott-grafted.html
It's certainly worth a listen.
There's no doubt in my mind that Torah is something I must continue to follow as I believe it to be the key for G-d's people during the times of tribulation (if I live to see them). To approach the Torah as an obligation somewhat detracts from the intent of keeping it as a gentile. Out of obligation is not what got me here, and I see no evidence that out of obligation that I must continue on, but rather genuine love and longing for truth.
I can see performing the commandments out of love and that's not inconsistent with Rabbinic commentary.
"I can see performing the commandments out of love and that's not inconsistent with Rabbinic commentary."
I am convinced that the One-Law movement IS NOT at all about any eagerness to observe the commandments. Lets face it, most of the One-Law observances and forms of worship hardly differ from what Evangelical Christians already observe and do - Sunday moved to Saturday - without adding any Jewish stringencies, a few "pagan" holidays were discarded/substituted for "Biblical" holidays). Instead the primary motivator. I believe, was and is a longing to acquire a unique identity (as Israelites, in this case). That's the primary reason why so many One-Law adherents later ended up as Two-House devotees.
I am convinced that the One-Law movement IS NOT at all about any eagerness to observe the commandments. Lets face it, most of the One-Law observances and forms of worship hardly differ from what Evangelical Christians already observe and do...
I don't think that's true of everyone in OL, Gene. I think there are a lot of folks who sincerely which to serve God and to please Him and believe that observing the mitzvot (to the best of their understanding and ability) is the means to accomplish this. I also know that many OL congregations, including my own, don't always know how to go about it, lacking role models who possess the ability to know the specific "procedures" for praying, reading the Torah, and so forth. The desire is there, but not always the information or instructions.
I do have to agree that there's a feeling of "specialness" that goes along with the entire process and I think that's part of what people are upset about when MJ/BE says "you can't do that anymore". It's as if someone is coming along and saying, "you're not special anymore". Feels like a slap in the face. I think that's the backlash FFOZ experienced when they changed their basic theological stance.
"I don't think that's true of everyone in OL, Gene."
I am sure there are many exceptions, James. Hopefully these exceptions will move on to a place (spiritually speaking) where they can realize their true identity as adopted and beloved sons and daughters of G-d.
@James
I didn't know that BE was proposing gentiles ought not keep Torah anymore.
From what it looks like (seems like everyone has their own definitions of BE and OL) many BEs are saying is that OL is hurtful to evangelism and the Jewish community. It hurts both Messianics and Jews that we should go around proclaiming we're Jewish in front of the world. Once again, the point isn't to assimilate and dissolve Jewish and gentile identities, but rather learn from the Jewish people how to worship correctly while understanding that we are still Jewish and gentiles respectively.
"I didn't know that BE was proposing gentiles ought not keep Torah anymore."
Ask Gene if they will let you read from the Torah scroll on Shabbat, and you will get your answer.
Gene's lip service does not fool anyone. And James sitting on the fence, tilting here and there is making me dizzy.
""I didn't know that BE was proposing gentiles ought not keep Torah anymore." Ask Gene if they will let you read from the Torah scroll on Shabbat, and you will get your answer."
Dan, where in the Written Torah that you claim keep is there a commandment to make aliyah to Torah during Shabbat services in a synagogue [considering that you are "non-rabbinic" and reject Oral Law as authoritative]?
"Ask Gene if they will let you read from the Torah scroll on Shabbat, and you will get your answer."
I'm not kicking down any synagogue doors demanding that I read from the scroll on Shabbat. I'm also not sure what the connection is there in relation to keeping Torah.
That has turned into quite an interesting discussion considering that I wrote it with the idea of finding something that everyone could agree upon.
"That has turned into quite an interesting discussion considering that I wrote it with the idea of finding something that everyone could agree upon."
LOL! May be you should try some reverse psychology next time to get the desired result of "agreement"! Tell everyone: "Torah has been done away with" - and then sit back and watch everyone scramble to defend Torah in perfect unison:)!
LOL! May be you should try some reverse psychology next time to get the desired result of "agreement"! Tell everyone: "Torah has been done away with" - and then sit back and watch everyone scramble to defend Torah in perfect unison:)!
OK.
*ahem*
The Torah has been done away with!
How's that? :D
"Dan, where in the Written Torah that you claim keep is there a commandment to make aliyah to Torah during Shabbat services in a synagogue [considering that you are "non-rabbinic" and reject Oral Law as authoritative]? "
Well, Yeshua did it (luke 4:16), The God-fearers did it (Acts 15:21) It was allowed then for non-Jews, but you, today say it is a Jewish thing.....
Peter ate with the Gentiles, only when the BE people of that day came he got scared...The more things change, the more they remain the same....Only we are not scared.....
"I'm not kicking down any synagogue doors demanding that I read from the scroll on Shabbat. I'm also not sure what the connection is there in relation to keeping Torah."
Because if you are a member of a community, you should be equal, not a second class citizen.
"Well, Yeshua did it (luke 4:16)"
Yeshua turned water into wine too. Once again - where in the Torah can I find the commandment to call people to aliyah?
"The God-fearers did it (Acts 15:21)"
Dan, you must be reading some One-Law version of the NT, must be the letter from the Apostle Tim. Where (in the regular NT this time) do we see Gentiles who were not converts to Judaism called up to read from Torah in synagogues?
"only when the BE people of that day came he got scared"
I am not scared to eat with Gentiles. Also, notice that Peter was accused by Paul of compelling Gentiles to live by Torah and Jewish customs. Perhaps there's more to this story.
Just to play the other side of the coin, in Luke 4:16, we see Yeshua reading from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah in the synagogue on Shabbat. I'm not sure that literally everything Yeshua did offers tacit permission for all of the Gentile disciples to do the same. Remember how the Jewish crowd in Jerusalem went nuts when they mistakenly thought Paul had brought a non-Jew into the Temple beyond the court of the Gentiles. We have no record of God-fearers or Gentile disciples receiving aliyahs in those days, so the Bible is silent on the matter.
Acts 15:21 says For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath, which means anyone in the synagogue when the Torah was read would hear it, but it doesn't automatically mean that everyone in the synagogue would read from it.
Don't get me wrong. I'd be thrilled to have an aliyah and personally, I don't have a problem with grafted in disciples being given the honor to do so, but I don't think the two passages you cite "slam dunk" a Gentile's *right* to receive such an honor in a Jewish synagogue.
Perhaps someday, when all is said and done, we "adopted heirs" will be equal before the Word of God to the point of being able to read it publicly in the full body of believers on Shabbat. My opinion (and I can't prove it) is that we will (steady, Gene).
"My opinion (and I can't prove it) is that we will (steady, Gene)."
Bro, if I will be proven wrong by Messiah himself on this, and in the future Gentiles will be able to freely take on any and all aspects of Jewishness, including reading Torah in synagogues - than it's OK with me. I'll be glad to stand corrected by Messiah himself and you won't hear another peep from me. At that time, there won't be any pretend Jews or Israelites either, so I don't think we'll have the problems we are experiencing today.
" Where (in the regular NT this time) do we see Gentiles who were not converts to Judaism called up to read from Torah in synagogues?"
"Perhaps there's more to this story."
I rest my case.
"My opinion (and I can't prove it) is that we will (steady, Gene)."
According to Gene, only if you go under the knife....Aren't you happy he is not your pope?....LOL!
On other post I asked you to stop thinking in terms of Jews and Gentiles, and start thinking in terms of Covenant membership. Somehow, you, and others are avoiding this issue. I wonder why?...
"I rest my case."
Dan, if you are going to start cutting and pasting people's disconnected words and phrases together to form your own thoughts, I may just permit myself a bit of fun with your own pronouncements:)
On other post I asked you to stop thinking in terms of Jews and Gentiles, and start thinking in terms of Covenant membership. Somehow, you, and others are avoiding this issue. I wonder why?...
Dan, write a blog and make your case (I assume presenting all of the scriptural evidence will exceed the character limitations imposed on Blogger comments). I'm not opposed to questioning my own viewpoint and in fact, this whole blog is dedicated to questioning viewpoints and assumptions. If you lay out Biblical evidence that devastates my arguments and cannot be reasonably refuted, you'll certainly have my attention.
"Because if you are a member of a community, you should be equal, not a second class citizen."
You mean like "first for the Jew, then for the gentile" kind of thing? I understand that it's the Jewish custom as of right now, and I'm not particularly inclined to stir the pot (with regards to reading Torah in synagogue) to voice my desire so that I may be considered a "first class citizen".
I don't think first to the Jew and then to the Gentile means that Jews are first-class citizens in the Kingdom and Gentiles are second-class citizens (although I understand how MJ/BE might be interpreted in that manner). I do believe that being "fellow heirs" means that we are equal, but different citizens in the Kingdom. Even non-Messianic Judaism definitely states that they don't see themselves as superior to non-Jews (though individual opinions may vary), but as being different and carrying more responsibilities before God.
Once you get past "different doesn't mean better", it becomes easier to get along. Think of it like, an American and an Israeli meet in a kosher restaurant in Singapore for lunch. They're two different people from two different countries, but neither one is better than the other...just different and living in a "strange world" (which is why I through Singapore into the mix...a place where they both happen to be but where neither are "citizens").
Just saw this:
"Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress" -Gandhi
Maybe we should all write that on a post-it note and stick it to our computer monitors.
Nah, I don't feel like I'm a second class citizen in the least (which is why the second class citizen argument is so silly). I have however heard the "first for the Jews, then for the gentiles" argument brought up by Jews who have tried to demonstrate why Christians ought listen to the "real authority".
I dated a Jewish girl for 6 years and became more or less impervious to the slandering that goes on behind closed doors. My family is German and hers was Jewish, there was plenty of uneasy feelings for some time caused by irrational generalizations. That experience taught me perhaps one of life's most important lessons, which is that we're all just humans.
"I dated a Jewish girl for 6 years"
Between you and James I see a pattern emerging. Apparently the best way to understand the Jewish people is to date or marry them:)
"That experience taught me perhaps one of life's most important lessons, which is that we're all just humans."
One only has to read the Bible to see how "well" both Israel and the nations did.
"Between you and James I see a pattern emerging. Apparently the best way to understand the Jewish people is to date or marry them:)"
Lol, could be.
And my wife isn't the first Jewish girl I dated. Guess I'm just attracted to Jewish woman. Go figure. ;-)
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