Anonymous comment on the
Searching for the Light on the Path blog post:
Bilateral Living
This is an extension of the discussion taking place in the comments section of my previous blog post (link above). I didn't intend for the previous article to be a conversation on the virtues of attending a church vs a synagogue (vs something else), but that's what it's turned into. It's also turned into a discussion over doing "missionary work".
Missionary work in the Christian church. A novel idea (though not the first time I've heard it). Thanks for the suggestion. -Me
Messianic Movement could use some of that too:) -Gene ShlomovichI really must ask Gene what he meant by that. Who should do "missionary work" in the Messianic synagogue? I think the answer would be fascinating.
Anyway.
When we make a decision to attend a house of worship, most of the time, we're thinking about what it will do for us and our family. "Will I be fed?" "Do they have a good children's program?" These are some of the questions we ask when we're "church shopping".
But what about what we can give back?
That's usually a secondary concern but one that comes up after we're integrated into the community. Sure, there are plenty of folks who are "pew warmers", but I've found that if there's a job to do and you have the skill set to do it, the job will find you.
At the church I used to attend many years ago, I drove my daughter to a mid-week Bible class and had time to kill. The church was expecting a new Pastor soon and they were trying to make the place all spiffy for him. I noticed that there were a lot of weeds in the lawn out front. It was summer. I had time. Anyone can pull weeds. I started pulling weeds. I remember feeling self-conscious because I hadn't asked anyone's permission. Fortunately, no one got mad and in fact, someone came out on one occasion to thank me.
Later on, I was asked if I'd like to be an usher, which I accepted while still in a state of shock. I was actually getting pretty cozy in that church until my wife told me about "Messianic Judaism".
I think it's important to have a role in your faith community. That's probably one reason why I stopped going to the Reform synagogue. I didn't have a role.
Doing "missionary work" in the church or Messianic synagogue is an intriguing thought, but I can only imagine it would have to be handled with the greatest care:
He and his wife believe that, in addition to attending our local community, they must also continue to be in a church to promote love of Israel among the Christian community. They searched for a church in our area where the Pastor presented an authentic teaching rather than, in this fellow's words, "putting on a dog and pony show."This guy (I'll call him "Bob") and his wife are retired and, as I mentioned on the other blog post, he has a long history with the UMJC and is an excellent Bible student. Frankly, it's a little embarrassing to be teaching him since he knows so much more than I do. Fortunately, he's gracious about it.
They've found a church (albeit one about 30 miles away) where the Pastor and congregation love the Jewish people and who view supersessionism as blatant antisemitism. This church sounds like a dream come true.
Anyway, he didn't pick the church he and his wife currently attend at random. While he was wrapping up affairs and preparing to retire from his job in another state, his wife was here church shopping. I have no idea how she found the church they currently attend, but the criteria they had for a church was one where the Pastor actually "did his homework", really tried to teach "meat", and had a love for Israel and the Jewish people.
From Bob's description, they hit the jackpot.
So it's not just a matter of connecting with any random church environment. Plenty of churches probably wouldn't have accepted them and what they believe, but this church just attached to them. Bob says an older woman approached him recently and told him she regularly donates to "Jews for Jesus" because she loves the Jewish people. Say what you will about "Jews for Jesus", but this woman is doing her best, and with a giving heart, trying to support the chosen people of God.
But how can this be applied for the rest of us? Sure, you may get lucky and find a church like this in your community, but from reading all of the various comments, I get the feeling such churches are rare. Further, how would you extend Gene's idea in the other direction and provide "missionary work" in the Messianic Jewish synagogue?
Comments?
The road is long and often, we travel in the dark, ignoring the light of the world. Look for the lamp who lights your path or you may become lost in the dark forever.
"A Jew never gives up. We're here to bring Mashiach, we will settle for nothing less." -Harav Yitzchak Ginsburgh
31 comments:
"provide "missionary work" in the Messianic Jewish synagogue?"
LOL, I meant non-MJ messianic congregations:) By "missionary work" I meant that we'd need to educate MM folks about their need to re-approach, in love and much soul searching, their brothers in churches and to develop a healthier perspective on Torah, Jews and Judaism. Come to think of it - that's why I am doing right now. You can say I am a "missionary" to the OL/TH messianic people!
"MM folks about their need to re-approach, in love and much soul searching, their brothers in churches and to develop a healthier perspective on Torah, Jews and Judaism."
If only it were that easy. Taking a fresh and lively approach with love and an open heart aren't as effective as you'd think. It's typically met with hostility, for good reason, because they've been taught going "under the law" or being associated with the law is detrimental to salvation (not exaggerating, again). That's why my little Torah study group has relied on word of mouth going between church members. When these church members leave and study with us, they either blatantly reject or they understand and they themselves just slowly leave the church! It's quite interesting.
LOL, I meant non-MJ messianic congregations:)
*grin* Be careful what you say on the Internet.
There's got to be a better way to approach people rather than always "reproaching" them. Most people will accept education but reject criticism.
"It's typically met with hostility, for good reason, because they've been taught going "under the law" or being associated with the law is detrimental to salvation (not exaggerating, again)."
benicho, your group seems to be quite different -mazel tov, I salute that. But take a look at the OL/TH movement. Many are "paganoid" toward churches, wacky theologies, divided into tiny groups that marginalize each other over practices and doctrines, perpetually angry at Messianic Jews, many thinking that they are actually lost Israelites, Judaism is wrong too, unhealthy obsession with Judaica, claiming that Gentiles must become observant ("come under the Law") and some even promoting circumcision - one could say that Church's fears and warnings about "Judaizing" of the Gentiles have been realized.
Do you see my point?
"Most people will accept education but reject criticism."
I believe that's the whole stance FFOZ has taken. I agree with it whole heartedly as well. That's kind of why word of mouth is so important because you can't just run up in the church and start posing even questions that may hint at "hey, maybe this law isn't so bad after all". By now all these churches are fully aware of the Messianic movement, so that doesn't help with evangelizing within churches. They're building up some real nasty defenses for their membership and the whole "Judaizer" teachings are rearing their ugly heads again. Speaking of which, the catholic church held a conference in Europe last month (might have been in November) about how the church was going to deal with the Messianic movement that's somewhat catching fire across Europe. Not to be dramatic, but is this the beast we're called to come out of?
...Judaism is wrong too, unhealthy obsession with Judaica, claiming that Gentiles must become observant ("come under the Law") and some even promoting circumcision - one could say that Church's fears and warnings about "Judaizing" of the Gentiles have been realized.
Interesting point. On the one hand, there's a suggestion that Gentiles with a "Messianic" background who support Jews and Israel, would make good "missionaries" in the church, to try to promote change from within. On the other hand, if we start showing up in churches expressing our ideas about support of Messianic Jews and taking a fresh look at the Torah, we will be the realization of the church's fears of Judaizers.
That's quite a conflict. How can it be resolved?
"That's quite a conflict. How can it be resolved?"
First of all - get rid of any semblance of obligation or even recommendation to become observant (basically, throw One-Law out of the window, along side with invitation - which even FFOZ said wasn't supposed to become a "theology"). Just teach that the current Christian understanding of "Old Testament" is supersessionist on many levels and need to be corrected. Basically, by teaching again supersessionism you will accomplish most of the goals and will help the church re-approach Israel.
"by teaching again supersessionism"
I meant "againsT".
"by teaching again supersessionism"
I meant "againsT".
This must be "Typo Thursday" or something. :-D
Relax. I wasn't thinking of going into a church and teaching everyone to wear tzitzit on their belt loops or something.
The other part of the equation is that you can't just go into someone else's church and start teaching stuff. I see it as a slow process. You'd have to start attending regularly, get to know people, let people trust you (a big ingredient) and then slowly start expressing opinion, probably in some Bible class, and see how people take to it.
It's not like you could go into a church and immediately start leading a revolution.
I certainly see your point Gene and understand the problems and skewed views of many different people from many different churches. It would be nice to give you some sort of "mission statement" of what our group maintains (for the time being). But I can only speak for myself.. Jewish identity is important and should be maintained whether or not a Jew believes in Messiah. From scripture we see that the Jews will weep for the Messiah when they realize who he is and was, I imagine this will be a very sad time for the Jewish people when they see Yeshua was there all along. I'm not going to try to say that a Jew should or shouldn't keep certain traditions because that's something that the Jews are to come to conclusion on. Sure, there are some traditions that may be harmful to faith (particularly forgetting intention of laws) but that's a strict doctrinal issue.
@James
"That's quite a conflict. How can it be resolved?"
As for us gentiles the resolution isn't clear. Like I mentioned, the best thing our group relies on is word of mouth. People doing extracurricular study with our group on shabbat. The stories are typically the same "I'm just not getting enough from church" "The sermons are the same" etc. Well of course the sermons are the same, we pull sermons from the same few passages of the bible for centuries and somehow we're supposed to have depth? The more you read the Gospels and Acts the more you realize that it's all essentially Midrash on Torah. This is completely foreign to the christian teachings who hold that the Gospels are all you need. While it's true, it's out of context and contrived.
So I suppose our solution is in the working. Rely on word of mouth, when people come out of the church you have the arena to teach them with love and understanding and nothing is being forced (they came to you, afterall).
What we see also is that many gentiles don't simply want to leave the laws alone when they learn about all of this. They want to apply them to their lives as they feel it pleases G-d rather than letting them be. It's a fine line between applying these laws respectfully (to the Jewish identity) as a gentile and then going full out OL. Many gentiles become very zealous of the Torah and begin approaching evangelism with the teachings that we all have to start obeying law. Like I've said, I believe gentiles should keep the law, but going around telling everyone they ought keep the law is harmful. This is the schism I'm currently battling.
Many gentiles become very zealous of the Torah and begin approaching evangelism with the teachings that we all have to start obeying law. Like I've said, I believe gentiles should keep the law, but going around telling everyone they ought keep the law is harmful. This is the schism I'm currently battling.
I'm not so sure that Christians *can't* apply Torah to their lives and in fact, I'm not so sure that plenty of Christians already do apply significant portions of the Torah to their lives...they just don't call it that.
It's the point I was trying to make when I blogged What Did Jesus Teach Gentiles to Obey. Assuming that Jesus (Yeshua) taught nothing that was inconsistent with or contradictory to the Torah, I think we can take a fresh look at the Gospels, map Yeshua's teachings back to the Torah, and see how we can, or perhaps already are, applying significant parts of the Torah in our lives as believers.
If you click the link I just posted and read the blog, you'll find the conclusion to a multi-part series I wrote, based on Yeshua's teachings as recorded in Matthew (it's the basis for my Wednesday night class). My overall conclusion is that there's nothing in what the Jewish Messiah taught that directly states Gentile disciples should wear tzitzit or lay tefillin, many of the Torah commandments for righteous living certainly do apply. What many Christians don't realize is that "the Law" and "Grace" aren't mutually exclusive concepts, but rather two sides of the same coin. The "Law" is the specific instructions for how to operationalize Grace.
If we can get *that* point across, eyes will be opened.
"My overall conclusion is that there's nothing in what the Jewish Messiah taught that directly states Gentile disciples should wear tzitzit or lay tefillin"
My biggest battle here can somewhat be derived from Isaiah 56: 6-7. The question for me isn't a *have to* matter (I'm assuming this is what you really meant when you said "should"). In fact it's a "should I, or should I not?" matter. By wearing tefillin or tzit tzit in a respectful manner am I going against something previously mention? That is to say, is there any indication that I shouldn't do it?
By wearing tefillin or tzit tzit in a respectful manner am I going against something previously mention? That is to say, is there any indication that I shouldn't do it?
I don't know if Isaiah 56:6-7 automatically translates into any obligation or necessarily even any permission for non-Jews to practice each and every one of the 613 commandments, but that may be a side-issue relative to our current conversation.
Right now, we're talking about how to use ourselves and our unique perspectives to communicate to Christians within the church that the Law isn't dead and the Jews haven't been replaced. It's unlikely we will be able to do that while "respectfully" wearing a kippah, tallit, and tefillin. Also "respectful" is a relative term. If I were to walk into my local Chabad (and I am very obviously not Jewish) wearing a tallit, I don't think the Rabbi would think I was being respectful.
If education is the key to connecting to Christians in the church, then we need to start by meeting them where they are and showing them how, what many of them are already doing (or what they know they should be doing) matches very well both with the teachings of Jesus and with the Torah of Moses.
You're right, I won't go into the Isaiah/what are we supposed to do as gentiles bit here...
Education is the solution, but I think we're seeing that not many want that education. It's a sad thing to see, and perhaps this is part of prophesy, not everyone is going to accept G-d's laws, we know that (look what the antichrist does in Revelations). One billion people the catholic church claims, is that the narrow gate/path Yeshua speaks about? What about the countless other protestants and believers? We can't all be on the same path to G-d and we can't lie to ourselves. This is why hard studying and scrupulous takes of scripture has taken over many of our lives, my friend.
"is that the narrow gate/path Yeshua speaks about?...What about the countless other protestants and believers? We can't all be on the same path to G-d and we can't lie to ourselves."
benicho... I don't think that acceptance or full understanding of the role of Torah is what will preclude people from seeing Messiah. Also, I don't think that only a few will make it either:
"After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands" (Rev 7:9)
In other words, G-d knows those who are his and I have no doubt that we will be surprised at who we are going to see there (and some folks may be surprised to see us there:).
Actually, I think a lot of people in the church are hungry for some solid teaching, but their expectation about that that teaching will be comes into conflict. Periodically, I have people from the church come to attend one teaching or another at our congregation. Some last one session and leave because (my opinion) we teach a strong connection between the Torah and Yeshua as well as teaching against supersessionism.
Others stay and eat up the teaching with a spoon, but at some point, they hit a wall where the Torah meets Grace and can't tolerate what's being said.
I regret both circumstances because, if these folks could stay and tolerate the dissonance they encounter between what they (think they) "know" and what the Bible says, I think they'd come out of the lessons much stronger.
The one population I have mixed feelings about are other One Law folks who have been taught some really odd stuff. One lady told me she was reading some "teachings" on line which said that the Jewish people fell out of favor with God because they refused to reveal the Tetragrammaton to the world due to selfishness.
I agreed to visit this "teacher's" site and he was really crazy. I tried to "gently" help this person see why these teachings were not supported in the Bible, but she was too locked into the "Gee whiz" factor of this characters and eventually, she left my class.
I don't claim to be some sort of big deal as a teacher, but generally, I know the difference between a lesson supported in the Bible and strange cult-like teachings. People need a light but often they don't realize it.
"benicho... I don't think that acceptance or full understanding of the role of Torah is what will preclude people from seeing Messiah. Also, I don't think that only a few will make it either"
I certainly don't either, but this comes full circle now. If the NT is really just midrash on the OT and we ought know all the Tanakh should be scrupulously studied. Revelations also says the antichrist will teach lawlessness (as we all understand it, Torahlessness). How many christians today would cling to the idea that the Torah has been done away with, we're not free in Christ, etc? I submit a lot would/will.
We can't rely on what we deem to be the Holy Spirit telling us what we feel is right. So many times I ask Christians why getting a tattoo is a sin. Well, because it's a commandment. Oh really, so not marking oneself is a commandment (to Israel no less) yet the Torah was done away with? Too many times we see christians rely on what they "feel" is right or wrong. While many of us gentile christians make sound and correct decisions regarding Torah teachings (unknowingly) we also fail to realize that G-d's laws were a standard of living to be followed.
"...Torah has been done away with, we're not free in Christ, etc? I submit a lot would/will."
sorry, "we're free in Christ"* rather
I don't think the only role the Apostolic Scriptures play are commentary on the Tanakh (although that role is certainly significant). We also see something never before revealed; God's plan to bring the nations into the Kingdom of Heaven without requiring the vast majority of the world's population to convert to Judaism.
We really do have a "freedom in Christ" from what we were facing before; separation from God and ultimately, death.
Oh you're certainly right James, the Gospels are more than Midrash (of course Revelations is a prophetic book) but at the same time they are midrash. And I don't think that we're not free in Christ, don't get me wrong. But the term poses serious nomenclature problems in Christianity and churches. "Free in Christ" seems to take on this life of it's own, as if "you can do what you like, we're no longer under the law, faith, grace and asking forgiveness permits us to do what we like". It doesn't quite work like that. And if we believe Torah to lead us on the path of righteousness then what does telling our congregations that Torah has been done away with get us?
@Gene
"I don't think that acceptance or full understanding of the role of Torah is what will preclude people from seeing Messiah. Also, I don't think that only a few will make it either"
I forgot to mention last post what verse I was citing:
Matthew 7: 13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
No doubt there will be many people in Jerusalem as Revelations 7 mentions, but that seems to be relative of how many John saw in his vision, not to how many people are alive as Yeshua seems to be specifying.
Another verse that makes me think:
John 14:6
"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
If we are to understand that Yeshua is the Torah and the Messiah, then it does make one wonder how vital knowledge of Torah is (in response to "I don't think that acceptance or full understanding of the role of Torah is what will preclude people from seeing Messiah).
If we read the prophetic writings we see that by the time Messiah comes many people will have already been led astray by the antichrists/beasts. this may be why there's a sense of urgency in the gentile community to get the word out about Torah.
Just started reading The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding the Talmud (Don't laugh...OK, you can laugh) and one point that's driven home is that you can't understand the meaning of the Torah without the Oral Law. If you can't understand the Apostolic Scriptures without understanding the Torah, what is being said here (and yes, another point is that A) the Oral Law is the sole property of the Jews and B) there are some parts of the Oral Law that only pertain to the Jewish people)?
Well, two things, James:
1. You can learn about something without a requirement to apply it to yourself.
2. It would be nice if Gentiles/Christians were more familiar with the Jewish Oral Law, instead of seeing it as a work of Satan (just look around online). It would certainly help them understand the "OT" better, and then perhaps even "NT", as you alluded.
1. You can learn about something without a requirement to apply it to yourself.
2. It would be nice if Gentiles/Christians were more familiar with the Jewish Oral Law, instead of seeing it as a work of Satan (just look around online). It would certainly help them understand the "OT" better, and then perhaps even "NT", as you alluded.
I'm probably the square peg in a world full of round holes. I'd love to take a (very, very, very) beginner's course in Talmud. A number of years back, I interviewed for a job at Microsoft in Redmond, WA (I didn't get it) but when going over the list of employee activities available, I saw they had weekly Talmud classes. To be honest, if I'd have gotten the job and we had moved, I would have started going to the local Chabad with my wife and left the Messianic movement behind at that point. Hashem had other plans, however.
"...if Gentiles/Christians were more familiar with the Jewish Oral Law, instead of seeing it as a work of Satan"
LOL. well aware of what Christians think of Torah. A couple years ago I have taken quite a liking to Talmud and mishna and all of these "satanic" or "kabbalistic" writings. to say it helps understand Jewish context in OT and NT is an understatement. Looking back on it, I don't see how I could really understand Jewish context in NT at all without reading Talmud. There are tons and tons of great lessons and stories in it (wish I could read it all the way through). many of the parables of Yeshua were well known in the Jewish world then, Yeshua actually changed endings of these (prodigal's son is a good example).
I've appled my contextual methods from my history studies to the Bible now. For example, you don't learn about the American Civil War by reading one guy's take on it (he compiled all his evidence from many writing and accounts), you read many books, writings and accounts. Historians make the distinction between primary and secondary sources for good reason. FFOZ does this as well, which is great, because if they make a good point (or a point you don't agree with) you can always go reference their sources and read up. The first book that got me interested in Talmud was when I read the complete works of Flavius Josephus. His History of the Jews is more or less condensed Talmud.
I will say this James, reading the Talmud is worth it. Just always be cognoscente of what's biblical and what's not.
"well aware of what Christians think of Torah."
well aware of what christians think of Talmud*...i'm on fire with the typos today. we know what christians think of Torah, just imagine how bad it is for Talmud. at a bible study I brought up a perfectly relevant parable from Talmud and everyone thought the parable was great..until they asked me where it was from. i thought heads were going to explode and flames were coming from underneath me.
I will say this James, reading the Talmud is worth it. Just always be cognoscente of what's biblical and what's not.
I've dabbled, but it seems so...vast. I'm reading a "Complete Idiot's Guide", just to get a handle on how the Talmud is conceptualized and organized on a basic level. Even if I could afford to buy all of the volumes, I don't believe they can be studied in a vacuum.
I agree with your opinion though. What little I've read seems to provide illumination into how Yeshua taught, but just reading the first two chapters of the "Idiot's" book, plus pondering everything we've been talking about and contemplating all that I want to know, makes me despair that I'll ever be able to grasp it all.
well yeah, I mean it takes a long time to get through Talmud and every other staple of Jewish writing but you'd be surprised at how fast you'd pick up on it. it would be a dream to sit down and read through Talmud or midrash, for now i have to do it slowly and selectively.
It would be nice if Gentiles/Christians were more familiar with the Jewish Oral Law, instead of seeing it as a work of Satan (just look around online). It would certainly help them understand the "OT" better, and then perhaps even "NT", as you alluded.
@Gene, you might be surprised at what does not fit your paradigm.
Our community's Tuesday night Tzadik class has been studying Jewish history, Talmud, Mishna, Mishneh Torah, Pirkei Avot, etc for the past 2 years. Although some us are Jewish, the majority is Gentile. The men spend 2+ hours each Tuesday questioning each other with history and Oral Law yeshiva style.
One result has been to gain appreciation from our local Orthodox community, as well as students from 2 local Evangelical seminaries.
Even if I could afford to buy all of the volumes, I don't believe they can be studied in a vacuum.
Rabbi Epstein's monumental work, known as the English edition of the Babylonian Talmud is, due to a technicality, in the public domain. That is why you find its text in numerous places that are not Soncino or Davka. I have compiled a massive PDF for our Tzadik class. Let me know if you want it.
Rabbi Epstein's monumental work, known as the English edition of the Babylonian Talmud is, due to a technicality, in the public domain. That is why you find its text in numerous places that are not Soncino or Davka. I have compiled a massive PDF for our Tzadik class. Let me know if you want it.
Email me at jamesmpyles AT gmail DOT com and we can discuss. :)
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