Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Bilateral Living

Even if I could guide my congregation into a viewpoint more like my personal stance, I don’t think I could stay. The dissonance between that lifestyle and living with a Jewish wife isn’t something I can resolve over the long haul. If I’m going to be considered a Christian in relation to her being a Jew, I might as well try to own the label and see what our lives together are going to be like as we both continue to travel down our paths together (and that’s an odd image to visualize…two people traveling two separate paths together…I wonder if that’s “Bilateral Ecclesiology?”).
-My comment on the Daily Minyan blog post:
Bilateral Ecclesiology: Infrequently Answered Questions

Bilateral Ecclesiology and the Gentiles Series

If you are a regular reader of this blog, you know that I'm not 100% sold on everything proposed by "Bilateral Ecclesiology" (BE) as presented in Mark Kinzer's book Postmissionary Messianic Judaism: Redefining Christian Engagement with the Jewish People. I understand and even support the need of the Jewish community contained within the Messianic movement to establish and maintain a uniquely Jewish identity and practice rather than assimilating into the Christian culture. However, I believe that BE may actually  be working against one of it's stated goals; to promote "unity" between the Messianic synagogue and the Christian church. Often, the blogosphere discussion revolving around BE seems to build a brick wall between Jews and Christians, rather than encourage an open exchange.

While Gene Shlomovich makes a compelling case for Bilateral Ecclesiology in his latest blog post, I still think the ideal has a long way to go before it can be effectively and practically implemented in a manner that doesn't automatically reject most churches and the vast majority of Gentiles who, in one fashion or another, have attached themselves to Messianic or Messianic-like groups.

That said, a rather odd thought occurred to me the other day, but you'll need a little background about me first.

My wife is Jewish. More accurately, her mother was Jewish (my mother-in-law passed away many years ago) and her father was a Gentile (which still makes my wife halachically Jewish). My mother-in-law became estranged from her Jewish family in Boston decades ago and my wife was raised without any awareness that she was Jewish. She knew she had Jewish aunts, uncles, and cousins living in Southern California where she was raised, but she didn't make the connection back to her mother and then back to her.

When my wife began attending university in San Francisco, her dorm roommate was Jewish. As they started to get to know each other, they talked about their families, and it was my wife's roommate who put the pieces of the puzzle together and figured out my wife was Jewish. On a school break, my wife went home and confronted her mother and it was confirmed. My wife discovered her Judaism. She has since gone through the local Chabad Rabbi and had her background looked into and found that all of her mother's deceased relatives are buried in Jewish cemeteries.

You'll need to know all this to understand what I'm going to say later on.

When my wife and I married, neither of us had a religious faith. My wife was even more vehemently opposed to religion and religious people than I was. By that time, she knew she was Jewish, but it didn't make any particular impact on her life. I spent a lot of my history having secular Jewish friends (including other Jewish girlfriends before my wife), so I was "familiar" with Judaism, but only within that context. I never met any of my wife's Jewish relatives from back east and I only met one Jewish cousin from California, and his lifestyle was completely secular (and by the way, when he passed away, we went to the funeral and he was buried in a Jewish cemetery in Los Angeles).

In other words, as "intermarrieds", we had virtually none of the issues you'd expect in a Jewish interfaith marriage.

Time passed.

Long story short, we both came to faith in Jesus Christ in our early 40s and started attending a church. As "new believers" we had lots of questions but the church didn't seem to have lots of answers. Also, the "cliquishness" of the various "in groups" in the church gave us a very poor impression of Christianity, although we met many wonderful people who epitomized the grace and compassion of Jesus (I still miss Pastor Jerry).

My wife, by "accident" (if you believe in random events occurring within a created and purposeful universe) came into contact with our local "Messianic" (One Law) congregation and she was instantly hooked. I was finally finding a role in our church and it took some time for me to transition but eventually, I adopted a traditional early First Fruits of Zion (FFOZ) One Law perspective on Jews, Gentiles, the Torah, and God. I never looked back.

Another long story short, I stayed with the "Messianic movement" as my preferred worship and faith lifestyle, while my wife shot out the other end, through conservative and reform Judaism (for decades, the only synagogue in Southwestern Idaho was comprised of a reform group and a conservative group which had merged to create a viable, single membership) and into the Chabad, where she studies and worships today (though she still has strong ties and friendships in the reform/conservative community).

Welcome to my Jewish interfaith marriage.

Now for the "odd thought".

I'm not telling you all of this because I think my life and marriage are generally fascinating to the blogosphere, but because I realized when I wrote the words on Gene's blog which I quoted above, that my life and the proposal of BE have something in common. Let's take a look at the core of my realization again. I'll edit my original comments to provide clarity:
I'm a Christian man married to and living with a Jewish woman. Our lives are like two people who are traveling down two separate paths together. How can two people travel down two separate paths and, at the same time, be side-by-side, sharing the same lives and even to some degree, the same lifestyles, but being two separate and unique beings?
It's an odd image, but maybe not as odd as you might think:
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. -Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. -Mark 10:7-9
Anybody who's been married knows that men and women seem to be so different from each other, it's as if we were originally supposed to live on different planets. We conceptualize our environments in fundamentally different ways. We use radically different neural brain paths to process the same information. Men tend to be linear thinkers and are task-oriented, while women tend to be global thinkers and are relationship-oriented.

There are days when my wife just about drives me nuts...and I'm sure the reverse is true.

But what's all this got to do with Bilateral Ecclesiology? Plenty.

Despite all our differences based on being a man and woman, our different cultural backgrounds, differences in where we were raised, how we were raised, and now, differences in how we conceptualize God, the Bible, and faith, it's amazing we can live in the same house and still have a civil conversation.

But we love each other.

We share three grown children and one adorable grandchild. We live together, talk together, argue together, laugh together, cry together, drive each other crazy together, eat together, and we are married together...in spite of those things, including our interfaith marriage.

We are what God joined together.
As they set out from their place above, each soul is male and female as one. Only as they descend to this world do they part, each to its own side. And then it is the One Above who unites them again. This is His exclusive domain, for He alone knows which soul belongs to which and how they must reunite.

Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai (2nd century CE)
Zohar, Book I, 85b
Now imagine that the Christian church and Messianic Judaism are married. I know. What a shock. I've probably just offended every Messianic Jew/Bilateral Ecclesiologist on the Internet. I hope I didn't, because this is the vision I have that, if such a thing is possible, would make the Bilateral Ecclesiology vision (I won't even call it a model because it's not that far along in its developmental process as yet) work. Read what I said again but in the current context:
I'm a Christian man living with a Jewish woman. Our lives are like two people who are traveling down two separate paths together. How can two people travel down two separate paths and, at the same time, be side-by-side, sharing the same lives and even to some degree, the same lifestyles, but being two separate and unique beings?
Two peoples progressing together like a man and a woman who are traveling down two separate paths but who are together.

I don't know how it will work, but I do know my marriage works. No, I don't have a "perfect" marriage. It has plenty of warts, bruises, and scars. But it also has the advantage of enduring for almost 28 years through terrific stresses and trials, and also through terrific joys and celebrations. If you can answer the question about what keeps a marriage together under far less than optimal and problem-free circumstances, you'll probably have the answer to what has to happen to make BE work.

A word of caution. My daughter told me something this morning. We aren't out of the woods by a long shot. Here's why.

A friend of ours (a Gentile Christian woman married to a Jewish man and who attends the Chabad shul together) was "babysitting" for the Rabbi's six kids (yeah, that's a lot for a father and mother to have who are both under the age of 30). She took the kids to the main branch of our local library and they spent time looking through the children's books. At one point, one of the kids realized she was looking at a book about Christmas. Suddenly, as if the book had just burst into flames, she threw it out of her hands and cried out, "It's goyishe!"

She didn't mean it as a complement.

This is my "concern" about Bilateral Ecclesiology. I don't know exactly how the Chabad community views things that are Gentile and people who are Gentile, but this child's reaction seems to indicate that she was taught that "goyishe" things are "bad"...really "bad". Kind of like picking up what you think is a pretty flower only to realize its what the dog left on the lawn. Yuk!

If any expression of BE depicts things that are not Jewish (and people who are not Jewish) as "yukky Goyishe" and behaves as if even touching them is disguisting, we are going to have a problem. This was the problem that Peter had to confront:
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
-Acts 10:9-15
We can have a beautiful marriage together. Yes, it will be full of all of the special challenges and difficulties that any interfaith marriage faces, but with a lot of work, patience, and understanding, we can overcome those obstacles and be what God wanted us to be when He put us together.
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6 (ESV)
Are we going to stay married honey, or are you going to ask (God) for a divorce? Your choice.

The road is long and often, we travel in the dark, ignoring the light of the world. Look for the lamp who lights your path or you may become lost in the dark forever.

"A Jew never gives up. We're here to bring Mashiach, we will settle for nothing less." -Harav Yitzchak Ginsburgh

61 comments:

Gene Shlomovich said...

James, you know what the issue facing us is? The divorce already occurred about a few thousand years ago! So today, we are just working on getting back together. It's not going to be easy, as the husband is not really certain that the wife has changed her ways completely (she is still quite jealous and unfaithful). We've been married for a while. It just so happens that the wife we once married - let's just call it "Genteel Charlotte" - became very jealous and started to hate husband's guts soon after the marriage. Then came the poisoned dinner (thankfully the husband developed a resistance after a while, but not before losing much of his health and trust) and then came the regularly hired hit-men to dispatch the husband. There will be much counseling ahead if they are to get back together for good.

I hope you got my analogy:)

James said...

Analogy received and I don't think it's entirely fair or accurate. The husband places all of the blame for the break up squarely on the wife's shoulders. This isn't a surprise, since in most divorces, each spouse blames the other without taking into account their own contribution to their difficulties. Speaking of someone crying out "It's goyishe" and tossing the opposite party away.

I can see in Paul's letters that there were problems on both sides of the fence. Some Jews had really big problems accepting the idea that former pagans and God fearers could become sharers in the Kingdom of Heaven without having to convert to Judaism (see Galatians).

For thousands of years, the Children of Israel had exclusive access to and "possession" of the One God of the universe (with very rare exception). Being a "son of Abraham" (see Matthew 3:9) was the only way to join the "in club". Yeshua tossed Judaism on its ear when he uttered his famous words in Matthew 28:18-20. Suddenly, Judaism had to "share" access to God with a people usually associated with idol worship and being "unclean". I don't think it went down well with each and every Jewish person who followed Yeshua.

(I'm not denying the historical reality of how Christianity has cruelly treated Jews, but at the very start, we see friction coming from both "marital partners").

I think the door to responsibility for this relationship swings both ways, both back in the First Century C.E. and today as well. Only if both parties are willing to acknowledge their part, both in the good and in the bad, will there be healing between them. Playing the "blame game" will sink us all.

Dan Benzvi said...

James,

you can walk different paths and have a marriage, but you cannot live in different houses and have one. BE wants you to believe the latter by using smoke and mirrors.

James said...

you can walk different paths and have a marriage, but you cannot live in different houses and have one.

Dan, if we use my marriage as an analogy, we do see two people walking two different paths and living in the same house. I don't know how to apply a personal or family template to the two different people groups inhabiting the body of Messiah, but assuming that it's possible, it might show both the church and the MJ/BE synagogue "how it's done".

Gene Shlomovich said...

"BE wants you to believe the latter by using smoke and mirrors.

Dan, that is your absolute favorite catch phrase! You must've been an Israeli David Copperfield in your youth:)

benicho said...

Dan can you explain to me your understanding of what BEs believe?

While we're on the subject of marriage analogies... Have any of you heard the theory/hypothesis that Yeshua had to die so that he could remarry Israel? I've heard this many times and didn't know if any of you had heard it. Basically if one commits adultery (Israel in this case) the only way to remarry is for the Messiah to die (marriage annulled upon death, the only way possible for a man to remarry the same bride would be after death). Puts an interesting spin on the OL theory if we're to believe gentiles are then part of natural Israel. We weren't 'married' so to speak, so then how can gentiles be included in a natural Israel which was previously married.

On a more serious note, where can I get the goy hat?

James said...

Never heard of that theory before, benicho. But you can get the hat at urbandictionary.com.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Some Jews had really big problems accepting the idea that former pagans and God fearers could become sharers in the Kingdom of Heaven without having to convert to Judaism (see Galatians)."

True, there were some and does not appear to be many, but what do we read in Acts (which is said to have taken place AFTER the Galatians letter)?

"So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Then, some time later came the separation of the Gentile believing communities from the Jewish believing communities. Shortly thereafter and for the next two thousand years to be a believe a Jews had to leave behind being a Jew.

That's not a blame game - that's a reality that must be overcome.

James said...

Then, some time later came the separation of the Gentile believing communities from the Jewish believing communities. Shortly thereafter and for the next two thousand years to be a believe a Jews had to leave behind being a Jew.

That's not a blame game - that's a reality that must be overcome.


True, and in my original response, I acknowledged that very obvious fact. What I just want to make sure of today, is that the responsibility for making this "reunion" work isn't just a one-way street with the wife doing all the work and shouldering all of the burden. In *any* relationship (and if you're married, you know this to be true), it takes both spouses working together to make the relationship viable. The relationship dies if one spouse seen as the "total baddie" while the other one comes out smelling like roses. I think that's one of the challenges BE faces...the perception that the church has to do 100% of the work while Messianic Judaism doesn't have to make any effort to nurture the relationship.

benicho said...

"Then, some time later came the separation of the Gentile believing communities from the Jewish believing communities."

It seems from reading the church fathers that replacement theology began to take form as early as the mid 2nd century. Justin the Martyr comes to mind, a gentile pagan raised Christian convert. Not surprisingly his replacement theology no doubt came about due to text read without background knowledge and taken out of context.

Like I mentioned yesterday, there could be a lot of things that led to the slow process of detachment. Christians being killed for "paganism" (worship of a non-Roman deity) while the Jews were allowed to worship G-d freely undoubtedly drove some sort of cultural rift between the two communities. This mixed with the fact that previously pagan gentiles were teaching previously pagan gentiles over generations (suffice it to say, gentiles teaching gentiles eventually loses Jewish context).

I think the whole "marriage" was derailed long ago, most likely by the mid third century when Christianity became the official religion of Constantinian Rome.

benicho said...

"I think that's one of the challenges BE faces...the perception that the church has to do 100% of the work while Messianic Judaism doesn't have to make any effort to nurture the relationship."

I'm not sure what church you're referring to here but I'm not seeing a whole lot of effort coming from the instituted church as a whole whatsoever. That's kind of the reason so many gentiles have left it.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"think that's one of the challenges BE faces...the perception that the church has to do 100% of the work while Messianic Judaism doesn't have to make any effort to nurture the relationship."

What work has the church done until this point to nurchure this relationship? It took the Holocaust and the subsequent rethinking of supersessionism and RP to prompt some soul searching. BE thinking represents the most substantial effort to reconcile the two bodies, and guess who leads the way in that regard? Not that Israel shouldn't lead - we must.

James said...

Steady, fellows. I'm not talking about what the church has done, but what the expectations are going into this mess (among other things, I used to be a marriage and family therapist back in California). Let's pretend an estranged couple, mad as heck at each other, have just walked into a marriage counselor's office for the first time. What should they do first? What should the counselor do to help this couple reconcile?

What work has the church done until this point to nurchure this relationship? It took the Holocaust and the subsequent rethinking of supersessionism and RP to prompt some soul searching. BE thinking represents the most substantial effort to reconcile the two bodies, and guess who leads the way in that regard?

Wow, Gene! BE proponents in the blogosphere periodically encourage people like me to leave One Law congregations and return to the church, where we belong and which we are told is God's chosen community for non-Jews. Yet both you and benicho seem to have such a poor opinion of "the church" and Christianity in general. Why do you want me to return to a community that you characterize so badly? Really! You're making the case for One Law congregations as far as why their membership left the church in the first place. Are you sure Messianic Judaism wants to be unified and "come along side" Christianity?

I can see our efforts at reconciliation have a long way to go. How many counseling sessions should we pay for in advance?

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Why do you want me to return to a community that you characterize so badly? Really!"

Has OL/TH done better? Their thinking represent a fresh, if insignificant, wave of supersessionism and RP (and a small showcase of how supersessionism grew out of early Jewish movement to begin with). Post Holocaust Christianity has been slowly dealing with it supersessionism (even the Catholics, the former leaders in that regard), it contains the majority of believers (including many Jews) within it, and today has many sympathetic leaders willing to dialog. Today, especially, the chance of a true reconciliation is nearer than it ever was in the last 2K.

James said...

I didn't say that OL/TH were necessarily any better than traditional Christianity. That's not my point. My point is that you are characterizing the church in a generally bad light (not entirely undeservedly) and yet expecting me (and everyone else in OL/TH congregations) to go merrily skipping back to the church like it's some type of Goyim nirvana. At the same time, assuming your perceptions are typical of Messianic Judaism in general, you are nursing a grudge and some pretty bad feelings about the church and everyone in it.

Our "marriage" sounds an awful lot like, It's a Mixed Marriage..He's a Prophet..She's a Prostitute.

Gee. I'm going to *love* being raked over the coals in our counseling sessions. Maybe I should slit my wrists (metaphorically speaking, of course) and get it over with.

I found the following quote, which I had hoped would be inspirational, but I see it only applies to me:

We cannot become what we need to be by remaining what we are. -Max De Pree

"Yuk, Goyishe" indeed.

Anonymous said...

Well I have to be honest, I don't necessarily consider myself a BE. And I know this doctrine is subject to so many personal beliefs that it's hard to categorize myself within it (if you provide a definition I can tell you what I agree/disagree with).

I would never tell a gentile in this Torah walk simply to return to the church. It doesn't work that way. You can't revert back to that type of study knowing what we now know. I'm not saying we can't attend church or anything, but the Torah walk must be continued. It forges growth, progress and further development in our fledgling community of followers.

Since I began frequenting my blogs I have found there to be serious problems within BE and OL.

Occasionally BE seems to advocate simply leaving the Torah alone. Rather just accepting it's there, taking on however much you can/want, following Noahide laws, etc. This is a doctrinal response to being respectful and mindful of the Jewish community and not "blurring the lines" so to speak.

The problem with OL is that they take the extreme opposite. Evangelizing observance of the law to gentiles and blurring the Jewish/gentile lines by saying we're all the same now, etc. Telling gentiles that they need to take up the law fully is never met with a good reaction. Furthermore how is this evangelizing to all the Jews that hold their identity and community so dear?

the conclusion I've come to so far:

1)Find a way for gentiles to respectfully follow Torah to the fullest manner possible while keeping respectful of Jewish identity.

This is a hand full, no doubt. But I'll be honest, the most supporting people out there are the Jewish people. I rarely come across gentiles that support this decision. The ones that do also want to know more about this path.

Can you imagine sitting in a pew listening to sermons about the law being done away with and how we're free in Jesus and that all we need to do is repent, be baptized and fill out a church membership??? I'll continue down this path.

benicho said...

LOL, the last post was by me. sorry about that.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"At the same time, assuming your perceptions are typical of Messianic Judaism in general, you are nursing a grudge and some pretty bad feelings about the church and everyone in it."

James, quite contrary - I am a very forgiving person, willing to overlook much bad blood and history between Jews and Christians (not to mention personal experience growing up in Ukraine, the country that coined the word "pogrom") in an effort to come together with my Christian brothers in Messiah.

James said...

@benicho: No worries, "Mr.Anonymous".

@Gene: Thanks for forgiving me. Somehow though, I still feel like the fact that I received Christ as my personal savior instantly turned me into a "whore" (speaking of Gomer) in the eyes of Messianic Judaism. I inherited a legacy of brutality, pogroms, and murder against the Jewish people, all because I came to faith in the Jewish Messiah. How am I supposed to be a "Christian brother" to Jews who see me as being to blame for 2,000 years of antisemitism, particularly if I ever decide to rejoin a church (and count this as reason 1001 why returning to the church is not an option)?

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Can you imagine sitting in a pew listening to sermons about the law being done away with and how we're free in Jesus and that all we need to do is repent, be baptized and fill out a church membership??? I'll continue down this path."

benicho said... Or, you can look at it another way. I can sit just fine in an Orthodox synagogue that thinks and teaches that for a Jew to believe in Yeshua is idolatry. I know that they do so in because that's what they know. But they are a community of Jews who love G-d and would do much for another Jews. I can say: screw this, I am going to join some some small, narrow minded group (take your pick) that thinks everyone is wrong but them. But how can I? I am a Jew! I can only live my life as a witness, hoping that what I know and who I know will shine through.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"benicho said... "

Removed "said" - I said that, not benicho:)

Gene Shlomovich said...

"How am I supposed to be a "Christian brother" to Jews who see me as being to blame for 2,000 years of antisemitism"

You can try... it's called "love":) It breaks down many barriers!

James said...

You can try... it's called "love":) It breaks down many barriers!

I hope so. Things aren't looking too optimistic...especially when even individual Christians are held responsible for actions, attitudes, and thoughts that happened before we were born. If this were marriage counseling and I were the "wife", it would be like the "husband" blaming me because my great-great grandparents were horse thieves and cattle rustlers. Is there anything good about a Gentile who believes in the Messiah?

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Is there anything good about a Gentile who believes in the Messiah?"

Is there anything good about a Jew who believes in Messiah?

We are all sinners.

In any case - my point is that Jews tend to think corporately and historically (Jews have a really good memory), while Evangelical Protestantism is individualistic and here and now (rejecting the past as if it's not part of it). There's in lies the problem of "What did I do to you"?

I am not talking about you James (obviously you LOVE Jews - you have the evidence:) I am talking about the challenges that are facing us. As an MJ I get lumped with what Christianity did as well (as in, "how could you join with our enemies, traitor?"), no matter how observant I am.

benicho said...

Well Gene to be honest the Jewish identity is unlike any others on earth. You're linked through a history of common ancestry (the best documented lineage on earth as well) and religious belief. Who else on earth can claim that? Being a German I can tell you that there is a strong connection to the people of Germany (I still have family I talk to there) but in now way are we linked through the same type of ancestry (Pan-Germanism made an attempt).

So while you can go to synagogue and have different beliefs you will still share a common identity. If I go to a and I don't share a common belief I can't lean on any other common denominator. g

benicho said...

If I go to a church and I don't share a common belief I can't lean on any other common denominator.*

left out a whole word there.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"If I go to a and I don't share a common belief I can't lean on any other common denominator."

Well, I think you do: first, being part of the nations you share in historic Christianity (which has many redeeming qualities and has done much good - spreading the Good News is just one part - in fact, I learn of my Messiah through and not through Jews!), and second, believing in the same Messiah who saves.

These are some pretty strong common denominators, IMHO. And what are the differences? Whether or not Mosaic Law is applicable to Christians?

Gene Shlomovich said...

Reading my words above, I am leaving out lots of them:) Sorry!

benicho said...

Well I somewhat admire the general view that gentiles share some kind of common denominator like the Jews, but it just isn't that cut and dry. Racism doesn't just happen between the nations and Jews, it happens between all the nations in general. As many of us know, Christianity just isn't a common denominator (what do I have in common with Africans or Chinese culturally?). Look at the differences between Arab Muslims and European Christians, yikes. For Europeans it's a loose common denominator.

The history of the church amongst the people of Europe is a tainted one, which is why so many today have great disdain for it. Christians in Europe are becoming fewer and more reliant on traditional christian doctrine. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for all of us gentiles however, and it actually is this "hebrew roots" movement. The term is thrown around of course, but the amazing thing is that we see catholics, luterans, calvanists and all the other fragmented churches looking to this movement for answers. I'm sure James can testify to this—it's amazing to see all these different church backgrounds collect in messianic study groups and actually AGREE on doctrine issues. Sure, within the Messianic movement we have disagreements, but one thing we seem to cling to is Torah (and this is key). I believe this is because there's an outpouring of knowledge and spirit here. I can't ever imagine coming to agreement with catholics on so many things, but all these false doctrines seem to dissolve over time when you're studying in truth.

However, the Christian church is so fragmented and there are no signs of reconciliation really. There is still a strong distrust between protestants and catholics for example. I'm not sure of how up to date you are on dogmas and how they vary, but there are incredibly significant differences between orthodox christianity and catholocism for example (both claim to be the original church).

What it really looks like is prophecy being fulfilled, the nations are looking to Israel for guidance.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"What it really looks like is prophecy being fulfilled, the nations are looking to Israel for guidance."

And Israel is telling you to go back to the church:)

Just kidding (well, that's partially true). I view the various MM movements out there today as far more dysfunctional (including doctrinally) on many levels than most established churches. There are exceptions, I am sure. But you can still be IN a church while possessing the new appreciation for Torah (you don't have to shove it down people's throats in case you think you'd be thrown out because you are opinionated, as James fears).

Gene Shlomovich said...

""What it really looks like is prophecy being fulfilled, the nations are looking to Israel for guidance."

The solution, short of disbanding (which will happen for many) is for some MM congregations to transform into, what some are calling, "Judaically informed churches", provided they exist without severing a link to greater Christianity and certainly without being "paganoid" toward it. And, of course, without being supersessionist and disrespectful toward Judaism.

James said...

Going back to common denominators, I agree with Gene that Jews have a corporate mindset that transcends geography and history. The old fears of Christianity from decades and centuries ago are still very much alive in the synagogue today and that includes the Messianic synagogue. This is one of the barriers to Bilateral Ecclesiology: the traditional distrust of the church (with good reason) by Jews.

I remember hearing someone say once that Christ has no grandchildren. That means Christianity isn't passed down from father to son like Judaism is. Each individual makes his or her own decision for (or against) Christ, even if that person was raised in a Christian home. Each person develops their own "Christian tradition", which is probably why individual Christians don't feel connected to or accountable for the sins of the historical church against the Jews, while a Jew today can feel every bit as victimized by the church as his or her ancestors who were beaten, tortured, raped, and murdered in the name of Christ.

Add to all that what benicho said about how fragmented "the church" is today, and you have a Christian entity that doesn't exist, except as a bunch of little fragments or theology lying along the alleyway of time.

I drive past various churches on my way to and from work and when going to other places in my community and I wonder if I'd ever have the nerve to step into any of them. Who knows what I'd find inside? Even if I kept my big flap shut, how would I endure listening to how we Christians have replaced the Jews in the covenant promises of God and how we are the "new Israel"? While Messianic Judaism disdains supersessionism, and again, with good reason, how can you ask that we blithely enter a building displaying the symbol by which so many Jews were killed, and listen to teachings (and pretend to agree) which we know are patently untrue and even dangerous?

I walked to the library and pondered these question in a quiet corner for an hour over lunch. Nothing seems clear. No matter what decision I make now, it's inevitable that I'll have to take a wrong turn.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"I walked to the library and pondered these question in a quiet corner for an hour over lunch. Nothing seems clear. No matter what decision I make now, it's inevitable that I'll have to take a wrong turn."

Certainly, James, as you well know, most Gentiles/Christians don't share your sentiments and reservations. Perhaps FOR YOU there's a different way. You may do well in a regular synagogue, provided you keep relationships with other believers "on the outside", or in an MJ synagogue (as I said before - but you may not have one around). And of course, there may be churches that will prove friendly to you (it's about individuals within them).

Gene Shlomovich said...

"listen to teachings (and pretend to agree) which we know are patently untrue and even dangerous?"

What about the "patently untrue and even dangerous" teachings in many parts of OL/TH? If I was a member of those places, it would be a cringe fest for me much more than anything you or I would experience in Christianity.

Any case - James, what would YOU propose as the solution that would encompass OL/TH, Christianity, Messianic Judaism, and mainstream Judaism?

James said...

Certainly, James, as you well know, most Gentiles/Christians don't share your sentiments and reservations. Perhaps FOR YOU there's a different way. You may do well in a regular synagogue, provided you keep relationships with other believers "on the outside", or in an MJ synagogue (as I said before - but you may not have one around). And of course, there may be churches that will prove friendly to you (it's about individuals within them).

I've chronicled some of this before and believe me, I've considered the options. As far as a regular synagogue is concerned, that largely depends on my wife's comfort level. Even if I could square my "former affiliations" with the Rabbi, I'd still need her "buy off" in order to share her experience with her without making her feel self-conscious or embarrassed (sooner or later, someone I know will approach me and ask how my "Messianic congregation" is doing).

I'd have to work to keep relationships up with other believers "on the outside". I regularly associate only with believers in my current congregation. They are wonderful people, but it would seem a little cruel to say to them "I'm going to quit and dissociate myself from anything 'Messianic', but I still want to keep in regular touch with you." I'd have to think about that part.

There are no Messianic Jewish congregations locally. I suppose the nearest ones would be in Portland or Seattle. Not sure about Salt Lake City. Anyway, each of these cities is more or less a full days drive one way. Not an easy Shabbat's commute.

The other issue, is attending an MJ congregation really wouldn't solve anything if part of my goal in formally leaving the Messianic world is to make life easier for my wife and provide a more (non-Messianic) Jewish-friendly home environment. I know she'd like to invite her Jewish friends over, but who and what I am gets in the way.

I have met many people during my "church experience" who I felt were authentic Christians who loved the Lord and who were serving him genuinely. Unfortunately, the church where I met them had some real "issues" with what I'd consider "un-Christian" behaviors in how people were treated. I really liked the Pastor who was at the church when we first started attending, but the board removed him because he wasn't able to make the church grow (it was already pretty big). The guy they hired as a replacement actually had a degree in church growth, but he was a disaster as far as actual "Pastoring".

What you suggest would require that I start attending a church and stay long enough (probably six months to a year) to get to know people well enough to see what they're made of. If at that point, I decided the church wasn't for me, I'd need to leave and try another church. Let's assume that it would take ten tries to finally come to a church where I felt there was a "fit". I'd be anywhere from my early to my late 60s by that time.

When in doubt, and especially in new situations, when I don't have a clear option, I tend to stop doing anything and just observe to see the lay of the land. I've always believed that, up to this point, God has been leading me step-by-step through a set of experiences and encounters that were designed to build me into someone He wants me to be. Assuming I'm correct and also assuming He will continue that process, I'll have to just wait, watch, and see what happens next.

Does any of this have to do with "Bilateral Ecclesiology"? Maybe. As an individual disciple of the Jewish Messiah, I somehow need to find a way to reconcile with the body of Christ in my midst. I don't know how to do that.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Does any of this have to do with "Bilateral Ecclesiology"? Maybe. As an individual disciple of the Jewish Messiah, I somehow need to find a way to reconcile with the body of Christ in my midst. I don't know how to do that."

James, if you in my neck of the woods, I'd take you in: Orthodox synagogue most of the time for you and your wife, then classes/fellowship with MJ believers and Gentiles in MJ synagogue, as well as some Christian friends.

James said...

Any case - James, what would YOU propose as the solution that would encompass OL/TH, Christianity, Messianic Judaism, and mainstream Judaism?

I made what I thought were my best suggestions about a solution in Overlap and part 2 and part 3 of that series. As I recall, the response wasn't stellar.

As an individual, I can't "solve" the church. I can't "solve" One Law or Two-House for Messianic Judaism. Any dissonance that exists among those entities has to be engaged and addressed between them and there are about a billion little One Law and Two House congregations, fellowships, and home bible groups operating out there across the American landscape, not to mention every single church in the U.S.

My only solution to the conundrum as an individual, since I can't solve the problem systemically, is to remove myself from the immediate environment. I may not be able to solve the puzzle, but then I'm also not a part of the problem either.

I'm only one voice and a loud and bickering choir whose chief characteristic is discordant music. I'm trying to solve a problem that my family and I can live with. I'm not sure it can be applied to a larger group.

Of course, applying a family solution to a larger environment was the topic of today's blog post.

benicho said...

"But you can still be IN a church while possessing the new appreciation for Torah (you don't have to shove it down people's throats in case you think you'd be thrown out because you are opinionated, as James fears)."

I don't entirely agree on this (this could be a regional difference perhaps). As far as the various bunk messianic groups out there, yes, there are many. I had no idea how diverse and odd many of them were until I got on the blogs and began reading. I feel James' pain about not wanting to simply enter back into the church, though.

I'll tell you my story and the story of some of the members in the church I attend that began dabbling in this Judaizing witchery that we now call "hebrew roots" (sarcasm intended).

I'm 24 years old, so I haven't been consciously in this movement as long as you two. My parents however, as well as some friends that attended church have strongly opposed the replacement theology in the church for as long as I can remember. None of this had much bearing on their church attendance and membership until a few years ago. My father and another deacon (who both love Torah and tanakh study) decided to start an adult Torah study class that started every Sunday morning at 9 (replacing the normal adult study). This was all fine for some time until they began calling the class "Torah" study in the church bulletin. Suddenly all the leadership in the church was up in arms about using Hebrew words when describing ANYTHING. It came to boiling point at a deacon meeting with them nearly threatening to stop all Tanakh study period. The general response to all of this Hebrew roots study by the elders was "well, this is just how we teach things and this is how we do it so don't stir the pot". The church we attended was a non-denominational Christian Church. Stir the pot by teaching the bible? Pardon me, but that's scary.

From then on the relationship between our families and the church declined. There were various other debacles that took place. E.g. throwing Halloween parties at the church (one of the pastors dressed as a sooth sayer and predicted the children's future with a crystal ball), putting 1595832596 Christmas trees up inside the church and various rumors floating around that claimed we were all part of some Judaizing cult that had infiltrated the church. Our family had been members of this church for 3 generations, our families were some of the last remnants of the founding of that church and somehow we infiltrated the church (a conspiracy theory 3 generations in the making ;P ). For some time I felt guilty for not attending church. The sentiment inside the church is that if you don't go to church you may very well end up in hell. So our families took it week to week before finally getting word of various MJ groups and synagogues in the area. It's been several years now that I've considered myself part of this "Hebrew roots" movement.

The overarching point of all of this is that it's not so simple to return to church. In fact our families tried for some time to still attend church. They more or less recommended that we terminate our memberships because of the doctrinal differences we had (oh yes, excommunication is actually real LOL). Now that we gentiles have entered this Hebrew roots movement we're being pushed and pulled all kinds of ways, this is why it's so important that we figure out our role here, because it's not really much of an option always to simply return to church.

James said...

James, if you in my neck of the woods, I'd take you in: Orthodox synagogue most of the time for you and your wife, then classes/fellowship with MJ believers and Gentiles in MJ synagogue, as well as some Christian friends.

Thanks, Gene. :D

Florida's a bit of a stretch due to the distance, but who knows. Someone I know just took a vacation in Key Largo and said it was nice (which I know is still a long way from where you live).

@benicho: Wow! That's quite a story. I've heard variations of that experience from many other people. Being "too Jewish" in a church setting can be the death knell of your membership. Toward the end of my time at my former church, some people remarked in a rather distressed way that I knew a lot about the "Old Testament", somehow seeming to imply that my emphasis was traveling in the wrong direction.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Being "too Jewish" in a church setting can be the death knell of your membership."

Now imagine being "real Jewish" in a church setting:)

benicho, interesting story you got there. I've got some questions for ya, but I am all typed out for today:)

James said...

Now imagine being "real Jewish" in a church setting:)

Yeah, I've seen that happen, too.

benicho said...

Yeah, I've heard some real horror stories of people in various churches when defending the Israel of the OT.

Additionally...a few months ago I decided to start attending some churches again to maybe find a church home (I always go to Shabbat services and study groups on the weekends) that I could go and do some serious studying and discussing. Yeah right, that was wishful thinking.

The first church I attended was a little baptist church, I was about 3 minutes late to the service after talking to some people out in front of the church, upon entering the auditorium the first words I heard (no joke) were "thank Jesus that we're no longer under the law". I found it quite odd, but decided to let it go and try another church.

The next week I tried a non-denominational mega-church (I was hoping the small study groups would be good), again, upon entering the auditorium the first words I heard were "Jesus set us free from the law so that we may live free in him".

Is this coincidence or is there something more going on? I can't say, but the more I hear this the less I'm inclined to return to church.

James said...

The next week I tried a non-denominational mega-church (I was hoping the small study groups would be good), again, upon entering the auditorium the first words I heard were "Jesus set us free from the law so that we may live free in him".

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm afraid of. Can't answer your question, though.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Jesus set us free from the law so that we may live free in him".

1. Well, he DID set us free for the law, the "law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2). So, I guess it's all about how you choose to interpret it when you hear it for yourself:)

2. Gentiles WERE expressly given freedom from many legal Mosaic obligations of the Torah that are binding on Jews. For some Gentiles this fact was indeed a source of rejoicing(Acts 15:31).

What Torah laws are Christians in churches violating that they are suppose to be keeping instead?

James said...

OK, Gene. Next, tell these two Pastors that Jews who believe in Jesus still have their original obligations to the Torah, as well as the Oral Law and Halachah. How much do you want to bet they'll tell you that A) the law died on the cross with Jesus and B) if you continue to obey the Mosaic (dead) covenant as a "Christian", you are "under the law" (and he won't mean that last part as a complement).

benicho said...

"Gentiles WERE expressly given freedom from many legal Mosaic obligations of the Torah that are binding on Jews."

To be given freedom wouldn't we have to be under the law at some point? Because we weren't.

And you're right, it's how you interpret it, and their interpretation is out of context and incorrect. Their interpretation leads down the wrong path in general. The overarching doctrine: you can do what you want, try not to, but when you do just pray to Jesus and you'll be forgiven. remember people, faith and grace are all that count. and by the way, don't forget to attend church weekly, oh, and dont be greedy with your money, our church needs some new flat screen tvs so that we can better attract more people to youth services.

"What Torah laws are Christians in churches violating that they are suppose to be keeping instead?"

what's Torah?

Gene Shlomovich said...

"To be given freedom wouldn't we have to be under the law at some point? Because we weren't."

No, you were not. But G-d could have decided to put Gentiles under the same obligations as Jews by virtue of being joined to the G-d of Israel, just as converts to Judaism are obligated.

"what's Torah?"

In this context "Mosaic Torah as given to Israel and as interpret by Israel within community of Israel."

benicho said...

"...just as converts to Judaism are obligated."

This is a problem for me, especially at this point in life. What good is it to obligate myself to a religion without circumcision of the heart first? This is exactly what Paul warned the gentiles about. I'm not saying you're suggesting this, but it nearly eliminates conversion to Judaism at this point. So what do I have left? Study groups with Messianics.

We get into gray area, which is part of the reason why I come on these blogs. What's my relation to the law? Why is it an abomination for Jews to eat swine but not gentiles for example? Can you imagine if a father of two children told one child he can't play in the road because it angers him, yet tell the other child it's okay for him? Doesn't seem to add up.

"In this context "Mosaic Torah as given to Israel and as interpret by Israel within community of Israel."

I was actually just joking by illustrating that most Christians don't know what Torah (or Pentateuch) means or is, therefore they have no idea what laws they'd be breaking. Various groups break various laws. There are more blatant ones, such as Catholicism has with statues and idols. I would guestimate the vast majority of Christians can't even name more than a few of the 10 commandments (I've never met a Christian that knew more than 6 of the top of their head). As a demonstration our group holds for new "hebrew roots" christians that are curious about OT (they come and study with us from various churches) is that we ask the group how many of the 10 commandments they can actually name. As a group they can typically name between 4-6, the most commonly forgotten are coveting a wife, idols (catholics don't agree there obviously) and honoring parents. The most common laws I've heard (which aren't part of the 10) are attending church and tithing.

I challenge you to attend at a non-denominational mainstream Christian church. Go the the adult studies, listen to the teachings. I'm sure you've been somewhat distanced from the whole mainstream replacement theology mess (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think you'll be shocked.

We don't like discussing these things in the hebrew roots movements because they're not easy things to deal with and we don't want to step on toes, but these aren't exaggerations, they're very real problems.

James said...

Most of the people in "the movement" who make sense to me are in different parts of the country. I say we make a "virtual congregation" and all hang out together on the Internet (of course, I'm kidding) ;-)

On a completely different note, the class I'm teaching starts tonight, so I need to get up to speed. I'm even posting the class discusssions on the web for my "distance students". It's based on my "What Did Jesus Teach" blog posts, so the content can be accessed on this blog.

I think it'll be interesting...especially to see how people react.

Dan Benzvi said...

"Dan can you explain to me your understanding of what BEs believe?"

No I can't. Such concept does not exists. BE is a myth. It is an utopian pipe dream that cannot be implamented in the here and now.

I like your acronyms BEs...LOL! If you know what I mean....

Allison said...

"As an individual disciple of the Jewish Messiah, I somehow need to find a way to reconcile with the body of Christ in my midst. I don't know how to do that."

I hear you, James. Me neither.

"But you can still be IN a church while possessing the new appreciation for Torah”

Umm… Have you ever tried to instill a value in a child—say, against drunkenness—and then go and visit a beloved family member’s home, only to find them drunk and stating how great the martini bar is, “ya gotta try it!”. This isn’t the local homeless guy who is filthy drunk, no…this is grandma or grandpa. This is the kind of mindbending-for-a-kid pickle that I find whenever we have tried to venture back into the church. Raising our girls (they are 9 and 12), we have instilled in them a love of G-d, His Torah, His people and the Land of Israel. We don’t feel that the Jews are under some “horrible” thing called “The Law”…nor do we feel that we are “burdened” by the elements of Torah that we submit to as gentiles wanting to imitate (in quite a pathetic way, I’m sure) our Master, Yeshua. Back to the analogy…so we bring our girls into different churches, to hear messages that are occasionally outright anti-semitic, anti-Torah and filled with messages that are counter to that which we are trying to instill in them. Lots of “Ya gotta try the martini bar” moments…along with moments of "you are doing WHAT?!?". Anyone who has raised kids knows that heart-sinking feeling when they, as a parent, are being undercut by an authority or loved one in the family. Oddly enough, the more we filter out what the church has been known to preach, the more my girls think they have in common with them. WE DON’T WANT TO FEEL ‘DIFFERENT’ OR ‘ALIENATED’…it just happens, despite all the mental gymnastics we try to do.
So no, I don’t fear that we’d “be thrown out because we are opinionated”. I fear that there would be an insidious undoing of some of what we have spent years pouring into our children.
To sum up, on one hand there are churches that preach replacement theology, hardly glance into the OT, and have an exceedingly unfortunate (IMHO) view of Torah. On the other hand, there are these OL groups who love the Torah, but are wrongly calling themselves “Torah observant” by their own standards, and therefore minimizing Jewish identity, and yes, they tend to think they alone are right, and the church and the Jews are ‘doing it wrong’.
That kind of stinks that those are my options. But if I would have to choose…I’d err on the side of a group who loved the Torah, and who saw Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah. Because that is who He is…I don’t want a different version of Him to be presented over and over and over.
Since both of those options stink, we will continue studying the Bible in our teeny-tiny fellowship and pray for things to change. G-d help us all.

James said...

Actually, I had a very interesting experience at my class tonight. One of the gentlemen who has been attending our congregation for some months now has been in "the movement" for many, many years. He has, in his history, attended or visited a number of UMJC affiliated congregations and been to a number of their conferences. He is extremely well versed in the Bible and has a great love for Israel.

When he and his wife were in an area where there were no congregations for the past 12 years (before moving to Idaho), they maintained relations with a local church. They taught Bible classes to some church members out of their background and tradition and found that the students were hungry for some "meat and potatoes".

He and his wife believe that, in addition to attending our local community, they must also continue to be in a church to promote love of Israel among the Christian community. They searched for a church in our area where the Pastor presented an authentic teaching rather than, in this fellow's words, "putting on a dog and pony show."

They've found a church (albeit one about 30 miles away) where the Pastor and congregation love the Jewish people and who view supersessionism as blatant antisemitism. This church sounds like a dream come true.

Wow!

Something for me to think about.

Anonymous said...

If we ever expect to change the church, which is needed, how do we intend to do that outside of relationship and without personal sacrifice? James, I applaud individuals like you mention above and see them in no different light that people that make a commitment to serve in desperate lands to bring the Gospel, food, care, and service to those lost and hurting. Everyone is called to be a missionary—I think a very valid question to ask oneself is, “How am I serving God, sacrificing my time and personal comfort for the sake of the kingdom.”

James said...

Everyone is called to be a missionary—I think a very valid question to ask oneself is, “How am I serving God, sacrificing my time and personal comfort for the sake of the kingdom.”

Missionary work in the Christian church. A novel idea (though not the first time I've heard it). Thanks for the suggestion.

Gene Shlomovich said...

"Missionary work in the Christian church. A novel idea (though not the first time I've heard it). Thanks for the suggestion."

Messianic Movement could use some of that too:)

Allison said...

"If we ever expect to change the church, which is needed, how do we intend to do that outside of relationship and without personal sacrifice?"

Yes, the opportunity for teaching classes and other ministry opportunities involve being in relationship by actually GOING to a church. That is just the practical side of things.

We don't attend a church, but I do not feel we are "out of relationship" with her...just out of "formal" relationship defined by attending Sunday services (for the reasons mentioned in my previous comment). I maintain my closest friendships with my Christian friends, and we share our hearts as we live this life of faith together. Sometimes it is very hard, because we can view things from very different perspectives at times...but we love each other. And at times that is work. I've found that the harder I work at being gracious, patient and understanding, the more patience, grace and understanding toward my "quirky torah following" is exhibited by my friends. I pray that this becomes a growing bridge of understanding between those of us who have found beauty and meaning in the Torah, and those who think it is a cold, dead burden.

I guess I am in agreement with Anonymous, if he is not just speaking about church 'attendance'. Again, things might be different if our kids were grown...but they are not, and they are at our sides, watching, listening, and taking EVERYTHING in. How we tremble at the amount of wisdom needed to navigate these years of providing a spiritual foundation to our girls. Hmm...at the same time, we are examining our own foundations as their parents. Ugh! :)

James said...

I suppose in some sense I'm "lucky" that my kids are all grown, but when they were smaller and my wife and I were struggling to find a "church/synagogue home" (for lack of a better term), we pulled and pushed then this way and that.

We started out in a church, then ended up on the local MJ/OL congregation. We left that for awhile after a split and joined a small Torah study group (which was really quite excellent). At some point, all three children were bar/bat mitzvahed in the OL group (Gene, don't hate me) but my daughter went on to be bar mitzvahed in the local Reform synagogue.

By the time the kids got into their late teens, my daughter was the only one to maintain a more or less regular contact with the Reform shul. The boys, while continuing a self-identity as Jews, didn't go in for regular worship.

Today, none of them attend worship services anywhere (actually, I'm not sure if David attends a church with his wife because I know his in-laws are believers), although my daughter does help my wife when they have to cook for events at the Chabad and Reform synagogue (my wife works as a cook in the kitchen of a convention center, so she gets picked to do all the food prep for various synagogue events).

If I had it to do over again and started out when the kids were younger, I think I'd have chosen to have the whole family attend a synagogue to solidify the Jewish identity of my children, but hindsight is always 20/20. I know...what about Yeshua, right? I wish I could answer that, but having them go to a church would make them Christian, which isn't a bad thing, but it would delete their Jewishness, which I couldn't do. Too many Jews have already been absorbed into the church.

They're adults now. They have to make their own decisions. That said, I know they're still watching my wife and me to see what we're doing.

benicho said...

"If we ever expect to change the church, which is needed, how do we intend to do that outside of relationship and without personal sacrifice? "

This is indeed a novel idea, and is being applied by many gentile messianics. Naturally the first thing we want to do (most times recklessly) is learn a bit about hebrew roots then run back to Sunday school and try to apply it to bible studies amongst our fellow church goers. We would expect that people will meet the news with open arms and everyone will be excited and joyful with many revelations of what Yeshua REALLY was talking about. Buuuut...what most "messianics" come to find out is that it's simply not met with excitement. Indeed one of the first things we come to realize is the antisemitic undertones that lie beneath many church philosophies. I've come to call the gentile messianic realization of Torah the "Matrix effect" simply because it's like we've taken the red pill. Once we come to the realization that we've been set free we soon see the bittersweet aspect of all this.

Our messianic group (which includes gentiles and Jews) includes people that still attend various churches. As they have come to find out themselves, evangelism back into the church is not an easy task (something you don't realize until you try to apply it). The best conclusion that we have come to is that churches aren't just an outreach to spread the gospel. They're an institution with payrolls and wages that are put on the line when a threatening teaching comes along. They pay overheads, often times have debt on new church constructions, paying for new equipment (notice in my story the flat screen TV joke). No pastor or preacher wants their church coming to a realization that some of their teachings are flat out wrong or harmful, they lose membership, membership is money, money is livelihood. This is often why church leadership is so vehement about opposing this Hebrew roots plague. So evangelism in the church is a slow patient process, often happening by word of mouth. "Hey you should check out this class" or "There's this great OT study group". This simply cannot happen within the church (read above story I posted). You also must understand that not many people receive this knowledge happily.

"...commitment to serve in desperate lands to bring the Gospel, food, care, and service to those lost and hurting."

While this is very chivalric, our goal is to create disciples (followers of Yeshua's teachings). Evangelism and taking care of the poor, widows and orphans are part of Torah law. So in short, this is like saying "put less emphasis on evangelism (included in the law) and more emphasis on evangelism", when really the good news that was brought was by the Torah through the Torah—you get the idea.

I'll tell you another sad realization I came to about the church is that many churches have outreach programs geared towards the individual. They sell these programs as outreach programs, charitable foundations, food drives, etc. The lure of these programs is based on the individual many times. They're made so that we as Christians feel good about what we're doing as a church and individually. Let's go give food and money to the poor because I'm doing my duty and that makes me feel good, right? Wrong. Churches need these works and these large attendances to be a display of their "fruit". Now we can look back on this and say it's not fruitful, but to most of the church these are indicative of fruit. The "meat and potatoes" that James was talking about are the two laws the Torah hangs upon—loving G-d and your neighbor. Loving the neighbor is evangelism.

James said...

Since this conversation has taken a new direction, I thought we could continue it on this morning's blog post called Missionary Work. Please join me there and Gene, could you say more over there regarding your comment about "missionaries" in the Messianic synagogue?

Anonymous said...

Just discovered your blog yesterday and have been enjoying it. I am in your area. What is the name of the local church that your friends attended the one where the Pastor and congregation love the Jewish people and who view supersessionism as blatant antisemitism?

James said...

Greetings, Anonymous. Congregation Shema Yisrael's contact information is here:

http://www.shema-yisrael.org/contact.html

They've moved their worship location from Meridian to Caldwell, Idaho but you can call or email to get the address.

Glad you discovered this blog, but if you read the latest blog post, you know that I no longer actively write here. On the other hand, there's a year's worth of blog articles here that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

Blessings.