A comment from the Congregation Shema Yisrael blog
Bilateral Ecclesiology and the Gentiles Series
Last Friday, I copied the content of one of my articles on this blog called Orthodox Rabbi’s View of Torah and the Gentiles and posted it on my congregation's blog. I've received two responses there so far, and both have been like the quote you read at the top if the page.
Today, I even went so far as to use this content as the basis for my teaching at Shabbat services. It turned out to be a very lively discussion and inspired a great deal of debate.
These are the sort of teachings that, at least in my little corner of the world, I consider "pushing the envelope". I make it a big deal on this blog to question assumptions and I'm extending that to my more "public" and "in person" world. The results are predictable and not entirely comfortable.
While you can expect questioning assumptions of the "One Law status quo" (or any status quo) to yield some push back, can you (or I) expect it to do any actual good? I hope so. But on the other hand, I'm only one guy. I'm not trying to lead a revolution, I'm just trying to get people to see alternatives. I guess this is what happens when you start threatening the sacred cows (and I've done that before).
I hope it's the former, but no one likes to have their assumptions questioned. I know that in traditional Talmudic study, debates, questions, and struggling with the status quo is allowed and even encouraged, but with many non-Jews or Jews who didn't have the benefit of a classic Jewish education, they respond a lot like Christians in a Bible study. If you step outside the established canon, you won't be received well.
The struggle between unity and division isn't just on one side of the equation. Everybody owns a sacred cow. When you go out "cow tipping", the cows push back.
I'm going to stop blogging now and go to sleep. Honest.
Addendum, the next afternoon:
I've never encountered problems building relationships with Christians who have repudiated supersessionism or, at least, acknowledge there is something deficient in the way that Christianity traditionally approaches the Jews, their Scriptures, and their Torah.Is it time to play Stuck in the Middle by Steelers Wheel? If I try to educate people to be sensitive to the needs of Messianic Judaism as Ovadia suggests, I get accused of not treating people with love and rebuilding the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles in the "Messianic movement". If I devise a plan that I think will gain the best results in achieving what Ovadia suggests but moves slowly, it's not good enough and all I'm doing is playing "dress up" with someone else's religion.
I have had a problem building relationships with Christians (One Law Messianics included) who are committed to the proposition that they are Israel.
I think what you identify as the "BE" corrective has nothing to do with BE at all, it has do with good sense. You shouldn't just go messing around and playing fantasy dress-up with someone else's religion.
A comment by Ovadia in
Overlap, Part 2: The Therapeutic Horse
If I were the character Q (played by John deLancie) from Star Trek: The Next Generation, I suppose I could just snap my fingers and give everyone what they want, but I'm not...and I can't.
26 comments:
James,
Let me apologize for using the word "you". I meant it in a general sense: "One should not..."
I respect your efforts and your courage, even if I disagree with your strategy.
As for more detailed thoughts, you'll get another comment or perhaps a response post. (I'll try to make it way shorter than the last one.)
"Is it time to play Stuck in the Middle by Steelers Wheel? If I try to educate people to be sensitive to the needs of Messianic Judaism as Ovadia suggests, I get accused of not treating people with love and rebuilding the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles in the "Messianic movement". If I devise a plan that I think will gain the best results in achieving what Ovadia suggests but moves slowly, it's not good enough and all I'm doing is playing "dress up" with someone else's religion."
You have been warned....Haven't you?
James, I too respect your objectivity and your willingness to discuss such important issues. Conversing with you I have long understood that you are NOT (or not any longer) "One-Law" nor are you supersessionist. I do believe that One-Law theology IS a version of supersessionism, but with Torah observance added. Just like the classic Christian supersessionlism, the One-Law suppersessionism believes in "New Israel", a "spiritual" Israel that is no longer bound by "flesh", but one composed of Jews and Gentiles. It even retained some of the classic Christian antisemitism in the form of anti-rabbinic Judaism.
I do believe in dialog. You are a perfect example of what's possible. However, I wonder if you yourself disagreed too strongly on this issue with any One-Law elders in your congregation or in any sister One-Law communities, what would happen? Already, some One-Law folks commenting on your blogs have been less than kind, calling you naive, too pro-rabbinic, or almost accusing you of selling out. Can they be partners in dialog?
Your brother.
James,
Reminds me of the anti-missionaries who are working so hard to bring back a lost soul back to judaism. The Genes of this world have no shame, the will flatter you and kiss your behind from all angles, spare no effort to save you from the big bad boogie man, One-Law.
BTW, last time I checked it is Kinzer's BE that is out there in imagination space...Oh, well....
I do believe in dialog. You are a perfect example of what's possible. However, I wonder if you yourself disagreed too strongly on this issue with any One-Law elders in your congregation or in any sister One-Law communities, what would happen? Already, some One-Law folks commenting on your blogs have been less than kind, calling you naive, too pro-rabbinic, or almost accusing you of selling out. Can they be partners in dialog?
To be fair Gene, the people who commented on my congregation's blog are not regular members or attenders of my congregation. I wish you could have heard the responses to the teaching (based on the same content) I gave at my congregation last Shabbat. It certainly made people nervous and I got a lot of "push back" regarding Ephesians 2. On the other hand, the "regular group" is used to me throwing in some "strong meat" along with the "milk" when I teach. I'm also building them up for the class I'm going to start teaching at the end of the month.
All that said, since you've already read today's blog, you know that I've reached a functional impasse in my attempts to build a bridge between our two worlds. I don't have the ability to make any sort of significant or positive impact on any front, so where else do I have to go? As you say, I am no longer a classic "One Law" believer nor am I supersessionalist but that leaves me (trying not to overstate things) a "man without a country", at least in my little corner of the world.
You have been warned....Haven't you?
I'm not angry (well, not much) Dan. Most of what I feel is disappointment and a sense of loss. It's not just for me though. I know my congregation and none of the rest of you do. The "extremists" who visit don't hang around long because I don't teach to their skewed theologies (and you can read everything I do teach in my study notes if you want to get an idea of what I present to my group. I'm not hammering "One Law, One Law, One Law" each week. I try to teach basic lessons on faith, community, helping others, challenging self-assumptions, and becoming better servants of God. In many ways, what I'm teaching is pretty generic and except for a few tweaks, would fit into a Christian setting.
While I think Gene gets a more realistic sense of who I am and what I'm trying to do and teach, most people in MJ think of me and my group in terms of stereotypes. We're objects, not a real thinking and feeling human beings. I may have been unrealistic in my approach to Messianic Judaism, but the door swings both ways. If we can't start treating each other as living beings created in the image of God instead of objects or types, I fear that unity of any sort will elude us. In the end, we'll only have "unity" within our own little tight knit congregations...or we'll have nothing at all.
"I fear that unity of any sort will elude us."
There are thousands of Christian denominations around the world, many Christianity-derived religious streams, many congregations which self-identify as "messianic". What unity is being sought - united in fellowship, united in belief, united as a "movement"?
Is this an attempt to unite all "messianics"? Why not unite with Christians as well? Why should I as a Jewish believer even begin differentiate between different denominations of Gentile believers?
Relax, Gene. I've come to the realization that, in spite of the fact that we are supposed to both be disciples of the same Jewish Messiah and are supposed to be worshiping the same God, that there can be no conduit for connection. The more I've tried to struggle for a dialogue and the occasional "block party" between our groups, the more I've been told that I am not a part of the party.
I believe you. It's OK. If Groucho Marx said, I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members, I can certainly take the hint and not attempt to connect in any substantive manner, to a "club" who does not want "people like me as members".
"If Groucho Marx said, I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members, I can certainly take the hint and not attempt to connect in any substantive manner, to a "club" who does not want "people like me as members"."
James, in that quote, Groucho is saying that he doesn't want to join a club that DOES ACCEPT people like him, and not the one that DOES NOT:) Just wanted to point that out.
However, it's people like YOU that MJs would accept into the "club" (whatever that means), and it's the One-Law/Two-House ideology that they have reservations about embracing.
I was trying to be "ironic" in quoting Groucho. Yes, I know what he was saying. I was also speaking in metaphor, but I guess is sometimes lost in translation.
Thank you for the complement and I believe what you're saying, but it just seems like I'm not a good fit, not because I wouldn't strive to be a good member of a Messianic congregation, but because I'm tainted by my past associations. Add that to the fact that any Messianic association would still be problematic regarding my wife and her connections to Chabad, and the fit gets even less likely.
I've struggled with my place in the world of religion and particularly in anything "Messianic" (again, for lack of a better term) for quite awhile now and these conversations have brought to light the fact that I have no role here. I stopped going to the Reform synagogue some years ago because I had no role there either. I just sat there and felt conspicuously Goy.
I'd like to maintain contact with the people, you particularly, who I've come to know and respect in these conversations, but it will always be at a distance because of who I am and where I come from. Maybe letting go of the struggle will finally result in my being able to experience the peace Paul talks about. In any event, there's only one way to find out.
"I'd like to maintain contact with the people, you particularly, who I've come to know and respect in these conversations, but it will always be at a distance because of who I am and where I come from. Maybe letting go of the struggle will finally result in my being able to experience the peace Paul talks about. In any event, there's only one way to find out."
James, as I said many times before, you WOULD have a place and a role in MJ, just as you are.
But I believe that what folks like you really want is to go even further and deeper in identifying with Israel - I think you would convert (as you indeed considered in times past) if you thought it was possible. It's not for everyone and it's exceptional and controversial, but it may be for those who seek a deeper, the so called "member of the tribe" connection with Jewish people.
"However, it's people like YOU that MJs would accept into the "club""
As long as you don't touch the Torah scroll you filthy goy, you.....
But I believe that what folks like you really want is to go even further and deeper in identifying with Israel - I think you would convert (as you indeed considered in times past) if you thought it was possible. It's not for everyone and it's exceptional and controversial, but it may be for those who seek a deeper, the so called "member of the tribe" connection with Jewish people.
In my case, the conversion option doesn't exist for a couple of reasons. I can't convert to non-Messianic Judaism without explicitly denying my faith in Yeshua, which I will never do. Even if I found a Rabbi/Beit Din who would be willing to "overlook" this "flaw" in my religious character, I couldn't lie out of inference, either. It wouldn't be right, at least for me.
Converting within Messianic Judaism isn't an option because my wife would flip out. Her attitudes about Messianic Judaism are very definite and I am not going to create what she would see as a caricature of a Christian converted to Judaism in her eyes.
That said, I can't deny what you say, I just don't see how it can be accomplished.
As long as you don't touch the Torah scroll you filthy goy, you.....
No really Dan, I took a shower this morning, honest. Even washed my hands after going to the restroom. ;-)
I must admit that my understanding of how believing Jews and Gentiles are supposed to interact in a common setting has taken a "hit". Maybe I just need a break to try and figure it out (of course that break won't come until around June).
I can't leave God out of the matter, either. Justin wrote a blog this morning called turning the page and perhaps taking my hands off the reins (pardon the mixed metaphor) is the best way to see where I'm supposed to go next.
"to see where I'm supposed to go next..."
Hey, you don't meed to go anywhere. You are in the right place, where your calling is. Don't let outside influence like Gene's demagoguery sway you from the path God layed for you.
Actually Dan, it was more Ovadia's comments that finally made the final point for me (and I'm not making him or anyone responsible for my own decisions). However, it's not just the endless back and forth debate on the whole BE/Jews/Gentiles issue but added to it is the continual separation of a faith and worship life between my wife and I.
As long as I worship in a "Messianic" congregation, I might as well be radioactive as far as the local Chabad, not the mention the rest of Judaism, is concerned. While my wife has said and done nothing to discourage me about where I worship and has even supported my decision to remain where I am, I know her life would be a great deal easier if I didn't do what I'm doing now. It's as much for her sake as anything else, that I have to leave the "Messianic" world.
I suppose even worshiping at a traditional church would be better for her than my worshiping with a "Messianic" group, but the other day it dawned on me that another significant roadblock for me attending a church is that they meet on Sunday. I have no intention of not keeping the Sabbath, even after I leave my congregation, so if I rest of the Sabbath and go to church on Sunday, when would I ever mow the lawn or take care of household chores? I know it sounds trivial, but somebody's got to take out the garbage and clean the garage.
Even the mundane details of life have to be considered.
"I have no intention of not keeping the Sabbath, even after I leave my congregation, so if I rest of the Sabbath and go to church on Sunday, when would I ever mow the lawn or take care of household chores? "
There must be an Adventist church in your area somewhere:)
Are you planning on spending your whole Sunday in church? I mean I spend my Shabbat at the shul and at home, and then on Sunday I go for another morning service at the shul to lay tefillin, then breakfast and Torah class. By 12 something I am at my wife's service (honey-do list) for the rest of the day:)
James,
I am surprised at your local Chabad, since i know from experience that they will welcome anyone regardless of one's persuasion. Did you really check it out with the Chabad leaders? Are you sure that it is not your wife but chabad sees you as a persona-non-grata?
The honey-do list. I'd almost forgotten. I've been writing books for all of 2010 and Sunday was my main day to get things done. my wife has been very understanding and has often suspended the honey-do list so I could meet my deadlines.
I finished up my very last project last Sunday so I'm sure the honey-do list will be reinstated any time now.
However, Sabbath vs. Sunday isn't the the only reason that going to a church would be difficult for me and, as I mentioned previously, while being known as "the Christian" among my wife's Jewish friends wouldn't be as bad as being known as "the Messianic", it wouldn't be stellar, either. The idea is to try to make our home more "Jewish-friendly" by removing any obvious signs that I'm an "anti-Jewish", "supersessionalist" Goy. That's actually one reason why I don't buy Derek's latest book (to review, of course) because I'd just have to hide it or get rid of it in a few months.
Seems like your wife is super self conscious of the fact that she's intermarried and you are walking on egg shells. It must be because she was not raised Jewish and only embraced it later, used to be messianic along with you and now she's trying to prove something to her new founded friends (pure speculation on my part, but some people are known to overcompensate).
So what? Tons of Jews are intermarried these days, including those in Chabad.
I am surprised at your local Chabad, since i know from experience that they will welcome anyone regardless of one's persuasion. Did you really check it out with the Chabad leaders? Are you sure that it is not your wife but chabad sees you as a persona-non-grata?
Here's the deal.
A large percentage of the "Messianic" population of Southwestern Idaho or those Christians who know me as "Messianic" are fairly well spread about. Most don't regularly attend my congregation or the other "One Law" (and in their case, they really are dedicated to that philosophy) group that meets about 25-30 miles down the freeway. They primarily attend churches, small group fellowship, or just worship in their own homes with only a loose association to others with similar beliefs.
A varying collection of these folks, who could easily blow my cover, attend classes and services at the Chabad on a semi-regular basis (not regularly, but you never know where or when they'll show up). I think my wife lives in fear that, if I ever showed up at the Chabad, I'd be recognized by these people and my "cover" would be blown, tainting her by association.
I did meet another Gentile fellow married to a Jewish wife who attends the Chabad not too long ago. As far as I could tell, he seems to be welcome there but, as my wife pointed out to me, he's never attended a "Messianic" congregation in the past, either.
My wife has gotten close to the Chabad Rabbi and his wife. She watches their kids for them, has helped them move, we store some of their stuff in our garage, and because of her background working in a professional kitchen, my wife does a lot of the food prep for special occasions at Chabad. In her heart of hearts, I think she would like me to be able to share the Jewish part of her life with her, but all that I've said so far, plus some of the Rabbi's remarks about "Messianics" made within my wife's hearing, has resulted in my having to keep a low profile.
Seems like your wife is super self conscious of the fact that she's intermarried and you are walking on egg shells. It must be because she was not raised Jewish and only embraced it later, used to be messianic along with you and now she's trying to prove something to her new founded friends (pure speculation on my part, but some people are known to overcompensate).
So what? Tons of Jews are intermarried these days, including those in Chabad.
I just answered this question for Dan right after you posted your comment. It's not the intermarried part at all. Please see above. ;-)
"I think my wife lives in fear that, if I ever showed up at the Chabad, I'd be recognized by these people and my "cover" would be blown, tainting her by association."
James, I have an idea - grow a beard (or just a gotee) and start wearing glasses. May be you won't be recognized as easily. Or, preempt those folks but pulling them aside and asking them to stay away from you.
Just trying to be helpful:)
James, I have an idea - grow a beard (or just a gotee) and start wearing glasses. May be you won't be recognized as easily. Or, preempt those folks but pulling them aside and asking them to stay away from you.
LOL. Go in disguise. That never occurred to me. I just had a memory flash of Peter Sellers playing Inspector Clouseau in the Pink Panther movies. Clouseau, imagining himself to be a "master of disguise", would adopt the most obvious and transparent "identities" when going "undercover".
Some years back, when my wife was attending the Reform shul, one of the women we knew in the "Messianic" world started attending the same synagogue (at that time, there was only one). This woman, though well meaning, couldn't keep her big mouth shut. My wife was trying to downplay her history with "Messianics" and repeatedly took this woman aside and asked her to "cool her jets". Being the flamboyant personality she was, this woman would have none of that and kept chattering away about where they met and how they knew each other. Finally, after my wife put it to her rather bluntly, she sulked off with hurt feelings but managed to mind her tongue thereafter. Ironically, this woman, who supposedly has a Jewish grandfather, is referred to (behind her back) as "the Christian" at the Reform synagogue. It's not an affectionate nickname.
I think this experience goes a long way in explaining my wife's hesitancy to include me in her activities at the Chabad.
I know you are all trying to be helpful and I appreciate your suggestions, but in the short run at least, I don't think there's an obvious solution.
"I know you are all trying to be helpful and I appreciate your suggestions, but in the short run at least, I don't think there's an obvious solution. "
Seems to me that instead of trying to reconcile BE and gentiles, you are better off reconsiling you, your wif, and Chabad.
I know for sure that if you honestly confront the Rabbi of Chabad of who you are he will find a way for you and your wife. He will not reject you which will put your wife at ease. They are good people them Chabadniks.
"I know you are all trying to be helpful and I appreciate your suggestions, but in the short run at least, I don't think there's an obvious solution."
Well, may be there is. You can just tell the rabbi that your are no longer a member of any messianic or christian congregation, and you would like just would like help your wife keep a Jewish home by worshiping in a Jewish space (but not ready for conversion). That way when fruits and nuts ever do show up, even if they happen to know you - hey, that's your past life.
Dan and Gene, you finally agree on something. :)
Thanks. First things first, though. I still have to stop associating with Messianics, which won't be until sometime in June, most likely (I still have that 16-week class to teach). After that, the first person I need to talk to is my wife. I'd need to put her at ease before I do anything else. Just ending my association with my current group might go a long way to accomplishing that.
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