From Why Bilateral Ecclesiology Will Matter
at Ovadia's blog Just Jewish
Bilateral Ecclesiology and the Gentiles Series
I'm not picking on Ovadia or anything said on the Just Jewish blog; I just needed a quote to introduce today's topic and that provided a brief definition of Bilateral Ecclesiology (BE).
I've been turning the whole "bilateral ecclesiology" topic over in my head again and again and I'm still trying to figure out how it's supposed to work in real life this side of the Messiah's return. Right now, it exists as a concept or an ideal, but I wonder if anyone can point to any actual examples of it being lived out in day-to-day existence?
The idea is that Jews who worship Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah are just as Jewish as any other observant Jews on the planet and must maintain observant Jewish practices for the same reasons as any Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform Jew. This, according to BE proponents, is God's continual plan for the Messianic Jews in terms of lifestyle and worship behaviors.
OK. Dandy. I don't see a problem here. But what about the other side of the coin?
"The church", as illustrated by traditional Christian churches such as Baptists, Lutherans, Nazarenes and so on, is God's plan for lifestyle and worship behaviors for all non-Jews who believe in Jesus (Yeshua) as the Christ (Messiah). That includes the usual "trappings" such as worshiping on "the Lord's Day" (Sunday), the removal of all Torah restrictions for Christians (shopping on Saturday and eating Shrimp Scampi for Sunday brunch is a go), and (egad) supersessionalism (Christians replacing Jews in the covenant promises), all thanks to the grace of Jesus Christ.
Wait a minute. That's not what Bilateral Ecclesiology is proposing for "the church". Well, not exactly.
Rewind.
Sunday worship, shopping on the Shabbat, and Scrimp Scampi are OK for the Christians, but this supersessionalism...one of the cornerstones of modern Christian belief, has got to change. Not only do Christians need to see themselves as separate worship communities with unique practices and few behavioral obligations to God, they must recognize the "Jewishness" of Messianic Judaism and agree that while Jesus killed the Law dead as a doornail for the Gentile Christians, he lovingly preserved it for the Jewish people.
The problem here is that Christianity, by and large, doesn't believe that the Law exists for anyone who says they are a disciple of Christ. Either the Law is all the way alive or it's all the way dead for all believers everywhere, Jews and Gentiles alike.
Sure, you'll find some churches that are willing to go along with the BE perspective if, for no other reason, than because it doesn't require the church to change anything...well, almost anything. However, most churches aren't going to buy into the Law not being dead for Messianic Jews (unless they really aren't accepting the grace of Jesus and therefore, aren't really "Messianic"), and the validity of many practices common in other Judaisms, such as studying Talmud and the authority of the ancient sages. They also aren't going to accept the sanctity of the Saturday Sabbath (except for those few churches that are sabbatarian) for Messianic Jews and the apparent rejection of the Lord's Day.
After all, the reason the church "accepts" (non-Messianic) Judaism in general is that Judaism makes no claim on Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. The church, in its heart of hearts, sees Judaism as a carnal and lost religion that (prayerfully) will come to worship Jesus in the end times, but in the present, only shares a "Judeo-Christian" tradition due to a common "Old Testament".
While many churches rent their space to Messianic Jewish congregations, there's still a distance between the two groups and Christianity may see the MJ movement as a "stepping stone", helping Jews leave their former "law-bound" existence and transitioning into a fully Christian life (without the Law). I know of one church that sees their "rental relationship" with their sister MJ congregation as "outreach".
I know I probably sound cynical, but it seems that the MJTI and their members and supporters have mapped out a challenging route for themselves; one they cannot completely control.
While Messianic Jewish groups can create and maintain synagogues that service a primarly or exclusively Jewish population, they cannot necessarily convince the church world wide to accept their premise and expect the church to make the required internal changes to their theology. It would be easier to get the United States Military to accept openly gay recruits into the various services. Oh wait!
At this point, I haven't even addressed those of us who are "inbetween" the MJTI's vision of a Messianic synagogue and the church. We "Gentile Messiancs" are accepted in neither realm, criticized by both the church and MJ for maintaining separate worship venues, yet continue in search of a place to worship corporately in peace and fellowship with both BE/MJ and mainstream Christianity.
Derek Leman, a BE proponent, has suggested another alternative for us, but it suffers from the same roadblock: convincing most or all One Law, Two-House, and otherwise, mostly Gentile "Messianic" congregations to accept the "rebranding" of our groups and our practices.
While I can see each Messianic, Christian, and "Judaically-informed" congregation creating their own practice and ritual based on their own internal requirements, how can any one group convince all of the other involved groups to go along with the entire set of stipulations of the BE program?
There's a long road ahead. Can Bilateral Ecclesiology proponents reach their goal?
31 comments:
"While I can see each Messianic, Christian, and "Judaically-informed" congregation creating their own practice and ritual based on their own internal requirements, how can any one group convince all of the other involved groups to go along with the entire set of stipulations of the BE program?"
James, how about because the one group doing the convincing is Jewish and the groups being convinced have as their goal to live according to the Torah that was given to Jews?
However, I personally is not interested in convincing One Law or especially the Sacred Name and Two-House groups. I think that many would be best disbanded and reabsorbed into churches because they are based on very wrong premises (Gentiles should observe Mosaic Law/live as Jews or Gentiles ARE Jews/Israelites). Perhaps some of them can be reformed into these so called "Judaicaly informed churches", but many of the folks in these groups seem beyond convincing (judging from reaction of many of them to recent FFOZ's changes), and most of them are little groups of few families meeting in rented out churches or homes anyway. Sure, I can and do converse with individual representatives, etc, but I do not believe that One Law groups will be here in another twenty years or even much less. This is partly because unlike other fringe groups they are not based on and do not get behind teachings of a single authoritative individual (like Millerites or Adventists, for example) - unless Tim Hegg is that one person these folks look up to and want to grow their world outlook around. Christians and Jews (Messianic or not), on the other hand, will be around for a while. There's a much bigger world out there to relate to and affect.
Actually, I was mainly wondering how the majority of Christian churches world wide, or even in just the U.S. would be convinced to adjust their theologies to eliminate supersessionalism and to accept that Jews who are Messianic can and should also embrace what the church would see as "rabbinic Judaism".
I do not believe that One Law groups will be here in another twenty years or even much less. This is partly because unlike other fringe groups they are not based on and do not get behind teachings of a single authoritative individual (like Millerites or Adventists, for example...
That means, if you're correct, that my little group should disband along with the rest, and that leaves a large number of people like me searching for some place to worship.
I've considered joining my wife at the Chabad, at least for the occasional class, but sometimes, people who know me and my background also attend and my cover would be "busted". Not only would I be (hopefully) politely asked to leave, but I'd endanger my wife's relationship with the Chabad. My wife has even said she'd prefer it if I didn't attend any Chabad functions.
This is one of the holes in the BE assumption: the belief that 100% of Gentile "Messianics" would be happier and completely accepted in one flavor of Christianity or another. I don't hate the church but I know from my experiences there, that I'd never be accepted as "one of them". Not when my personal convictions, not to mention my family lifestyle with my Jewish wife, are at such odds with the teachings of the church.
James,
Especially post-World War II (after the Holocaust and the establishment of the State of Israel), there was a massive re-evaluation of the place of the Jewish people in the church. Most major global church bodies at least partially recognized they had been wrong about the Jews (at least in some ways) to that point.
In most of the world's Protestant thought, supersessionism has already been (at least in formal statements) renounced. They are now working through what that means. This is why the mainline Protestant world repudiated early Messianic Judaism: not out of an objection to Judaism, out of an objection to messing with Judaism.
Evangelicals are (largely) a lost cause, although Christian Zionism (and even the bizarre worlds of One Law and the like) shows that there is at least a partial recognition of God's work in the Jewish people there.
Yes, there is a long way to go. It requires correcting a fault that goes back before there was even a New Testament. But it is already making headway, and it is possible, and we have God on our side.
Im right there with ya James. The small group I meet with is stable, but small. We dont have the 2 house identity issues, but I see that the BE crowd would rather see us at church, but I just came from there. In between....
I must admit to being in a quandary, though I suppose it's one of my own making. While I believe that congregations should be accountable to a higher authority, (and my congregation does have a parent organization, though it's not really active), there are a lot of disenfranchised non-Jewish believers out there stearing their own course. I know that in southwestern Idaho, most of the "Gentile Messianics" don't meet in either my group or the other "Messianic" congregation that's about 25 miles away.
They meet in small home fellowships, loosely affiliated groups, or worship and study as individual families. Some are relatively stable while others represent some very "unusual" perspectives.
I've wanted to create a place where at least some of these folks could come and receive "unfringe-y" and basic teaching on the Bible, but many are quite rooted in their theologies and aren't very flexible or open to questioning their assumptions. They probably won't go away but they won't be joining any larger groups nor will they be particularly visible on the "Messianic Jewish radar".
I know the sort of theological world that BE is shooting for, but I just don't see it being readily achievable, at least on a large scale. It's one thing for the Protestant church to repudiate supersessionalism, but it's another thing for them to integrate all of the standards proposed by BE into their current structure.
Also, as "The Mechanic" says, there are just some of us who don't fit the BE "mold". Either congregations such as mine will continue to exist, in spite of BE, because, as Derek put it on one of his many blog posts, "we serve where we're planted", or we join the ranks of the single home/family worship and, in my case, it would be a group of one.
James,
Get Kinzer's book back and read it in detail again. you will find that a favorite phrase of the author is; "solidarity with the Jewish people." On page 152 he writes: "The Jewish branch of the two-fold ekklesia must identify with the Jewish people as a whole and participate ACTIVELY in its communal life." Also: " if the Jewish branch of the ekklesia maintains SOLIDARITY with the Jewish people as a whole, then THE GENTILE EKKLESIA IS THEREBY BROUGHT INTO MEANINGFUL RELATIONSHIP WITH 'ALL ISRAEL'. (emphasis mine).
Did you catch it?
Kinzer's "solidarity" cannot be lived in the "here and now." When he speaks about "BE in solidarity with Israel" he means that the Baptist Church on the corner actually has "solidarity" with Israel because within the "universal ekklesia" believing Jews like Kinzera ctually remain communally within "greater Israel" (or at least they hope eventually to be accepted communally by "greater Israel"). The baptist Church does not even realize that they have been granted such "solidarity with israel," but that does not really matter.
In Kinzer's platonic concept of the universal ekklesia, the Baptist Church "participates" in Israel via the Jewish believers. likewise, the Jewish believers in the Baptist Church (even if they do not recognize nor display their Jewishness)mystically connect the Jewish believers who live communally with greater Israel to the "Gentile segment" of the ekklesia. For Kinzer, it is not so much the deeds but the thoughts that counts.
Is this how the Apostles speak? Does Paul envision a "universal ekklesia" where "separate but equal" sub-communities within an idealistic entity called ekklesia never meet each other, and have different governance and practice? Of course not! for yeshua and His Apostles, the only "solidarity" or "unity" that exists within the ekklesia is that which is seen, witnessed, and actually lived out in local communities of believers in Yeshua.
Kinzer's BE may work on theological papers, but it has no viability either in the pages of Scriptures or in the life-to-life reality of those who confess yeshua. If the peace of the eschatological ekklesia is to be realized in our lives, it will be done by having Jewish believers live in one house, and gentile believers in another. Not only will those who seek to establish Kinzer's BE fail to do so on scriptural and practical grounds, they will, at the same time, smooth away the "offense of the cross" (Gal. 5:11). In so doing, the very goal of the ekklesia, to sanctify the Name of God upon the earth by giving witness to the risen Messiah, Yeshua, will be undermind.
Kinzer's concept is a platonic one which have no basis in the reality of the "here and now.'
I've got Kinzer's book, Dan. It was Ovadia who had lent it out.
Unfortunately, everything Kinzer writes sounds like a doctoral dissertation, which is too bad because it limits the population he can speak to relative to his book. If he wants to send his message out to everyone, he'll need to either adapt his writing style, or work with an author who can present the concepts in a more approachable form.
I say all that because, even with three university degrees including a Masters, I don't always enjoy reading dissertation-like books.
I also say that because the passages you quote read like a brain puzzle. I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean. It's one thing to say that Jews have the right to construct and live in Messianic Jewish worship communities and it's another thing to say that non-Jews can only approach God through "solidarity" the Messianic Jewish group.
If I were stranded on an island and only had a Bible to read, would my worship and prayers be invalid because I wasn't "in solidarity" with Messianic Judaism?
Can someone please explain what I'm missing? Why is my relationship with God all by itself inadequate?
"Can someone please explain what I'm missing? Why is my relationship with God all by itself inadequate?"
Your not missing anything James...I'll leave it at that...and your relationship with Him is all that matters, if you have faith in Messiah Yeshua how could this be inadequate?
Hey James, send me note beit.tefillah@yahoo.com, I want to send you something to read.
Shalom;
J
Hi Justin,
Email sent.
I'm still trying to puzzle through the following:
When he speaks about "BE in solidarity with Israel" he means that the Baptist Church on the corner actually has "solidarity" with Israel because within the "universal ekklesia" believing Jews like Kinzera ctually remain communally within "greater Israel" (or at least they hope eventually to be accepted communally by "greater Israel"). The baptist Church does not even realize that they have been granted such "solidarity with israel," but that does not really matter.
Is me being a non-Jewish disciple of the Jewish Messiah supposed to be so complicated?
Justin, I just read your new blog post one flock and one shepherd. Really like it. Too bad you don't have comments turned on at your blog. Maybe I'll have to build on it over here.
Blessings James;
I had to disable the comments because I was receiving so many inquiries regarding a man I was once in ministry relationship with. The comments section will be turned on again soon.
If you want to develop what I started over here, that sounds good to me.
Shalom,
J
OK, here's a question for everyone.
Generally (but perhaps not universally), BE proponents say that Gentile "Messianics" in One Law and similar congregations don't like or understand the importance of Bilateral Ecclesiology because they (we) aren't Jewish, don't have a lived Jewish history and experience, and just don't know the importance of having a distinct Jewish identity.
OK, I can't disagree. I was born and raised a non-Jew and frankly, only became a believer about 15 years ago. I'm a Heinz 57 sauce mutt, ethnically, so there's nothing particularly distinctive about me at all.
However, that doesn't explain those Jews in the Messianic community who disagree with the BE position, in part or in total. I don't think anyone could accuse Dan of not being Jewish enough. What about Justin or Judah, for instance? If BE is important to the Jewish identity in Messianic Judaism, how come it isn't important to all the Jews in Messianic Judaism?
" If BE is important to the Jewish identity in Messianic Judaism, how come it isn't important to all the Jews in Messianic Judaism? "
Because they have no answers.They invented their own doctrine, which basically is a hoax perpetrated on people who do not look at detail.
James,
Here is what I meant about puting Yeshua on the back burner:
In his book, Kinzer uses verses like Rom. 11:25 to make the case that "Israel's no to Yeshua can probably be viewed as a form of participation in Yeshua." (P. 223).
Kinzer recognizes that Paul never clearly states this in the biblical text. Instead, he sees in this verses "Paul's HINTS (emphsis mine) on the mysterious Christological significance of Israel's no to Yeshua in light of the Church's history of supersessionism, anti-Judaism, and violent persecution." (P. 225)
Can you see where he is going? He is actually saying that individual Jewish people who have not consciously embraced Yeshua are presently saved by Him implicitly. to me it is a blatant rejection of Yeshua as our mediator. In case you have doubt, read this:
" I do believe that the Abrahamic covenant offers Jewish people access to God in and through Yeshua. That does not mean that all Jews, by virtue of being Jews, have a right relationship with God. It does mean that God's favor still rests upon Israel, and HE MAKES A WAY FOR HUMBLE AND FAITHFUL MEMBERS OF HIS PEOPLE TO ENTER HIS PRESENCE THROUGH THE UNRECOGNIZED MEDIATION OF ISRAE"S MESSIAH." (emphsis mine). (from an editorial letter published in J4J fall 2003 Havurah newletter).
Is all this woodoo mambo jumbo in your Bible?
"I don't think anyone could accuse Dan of not being Jewish enough. What about Justin or Judah, for instance? If BE is important to the Jewish identity in Messianic Judaism, how come it isn't important to all the Jews in Messianic Judaism?"
Quite simple - some of the people you mentioned were not born or raised Jewish, ethnically or religiously. In case of Dan, G-d bless him, was born and raised in the most anti-religiously secular city in Israel - Haifa - the only city in Israel where buses run on Sabbath. That had to have left some mark on Dan. Also, secular Israelis tend to view their Jewishness in a very different light.
Judah, I like that guy, but he was NOT raised in an ethnically or religiously Jewish home nor did his parents even identified themselves as Jews until a certain point. Both of his parents once sat on the board of MIA (Messianic Israel Alliance) - the main Two-House organization (Judah can correct me if I am wrong on that, but I saw their names on the MIA site at one point). Judah mentioned that his father has traced his genealogy to Jewish converts to Christianity. Even if that's the case, this makes the connection to Jewish people still very tenuous (mostly a degree of biologic affinity), and Judah himself would not be considered halachially Jewish by any Jewish body.
Justin - I don't know much about him. If though he says that he came from a Jewish home, my "Jewdar" (Jewish radar) says that he not Jewish either. On his blog he never touches on his origins or what was it like to grow up in a Jewish home (even secular Jews identity strongly as Jews) - I find it strange. He should describe his parentage in more detail. His theological outlook, however, seems to be one of a typical Hebrew Roots Gentile Christian.
Dan, reading Romans 11:25-32, at least from my perspective, says that the Jewish people (or most of them anyway), will reject Yeshua as the Messiah until the full number of Gentiles who are going to accept Yeshua have accepted Yeshua. Then, at some future point, because of this process, somehow all Israel will be saved.
This is really interesting given the current topic of discussion, because it at least implies that if the majority of Jews had accepted Yeshua as the Messiah from the very beginning, the "full number of Gentiles" would not have entered the Kingdom. I wonder if that's true because of what we're talking about now? Like it or not, Messianic Gentiles seem to see BE as being rejecting of Gentiles in "the movement", whether it's intended to be or not. If the majority of Jews had "owned" the Jewish Messiah from the beginning, would Gentles ever have been "admitted"? Now that many Jews are "owning" Yeshua as the Messiah and expressing it as BE, are Gentiles experiencing what God originally caused Gentiles to avoid?
As strange as it may sound, maybe the schism between Jews and Gentiles relative to Messianism/Christianity had to happen in order to get the word out to the Gentiles rather than having the Messianic movement simply evolve into another Judaism, leaving the Gentiles out in the cold.
If all that is true, is there a downside to BE that, while supporting religiously observant Messianic Jews, sends an anti-Gentile message to the rest of us?
Gene, it sounds like you're saying that BE is only important to people who were born and raised in an ethnically and religiously Jewish home (which doesn't explain Derek, but never mind) and that people who have more "tenuous" connections to religious (but not ethnic) Judaism, don't see the same importance in the BE perspective.
BTW, I like the term "Jewdar". I was going to ask if you coined it, but I found the word at urban dictionary. :)
This conversation makes me glad I never discovered any "long lost Jewish relatives" in my history. I can "proudly" claim that I'm a 100% home grown, dirt common Goy and not have anyone doubt my background or heritage or make it an issue relative to the sincerity of my faith or my ability to connect to God. There's something to be said for being a "mutt"...or a black sheep.
"Like it or not, Messianic Gentiles seem to see BE as being rejecting of Gentiles in "the movement", whether it's intended to be or not."
First of all, BE is about having two unique parts of one whole - a Jewish part and a Gentile part. Yes, from a BE point of view the preservation of Jewish identity of Jewish believers as a visible and corporal believing Israel is extremely important. It's nothing to do about rejecting the "Gentiles", even though something certainly must be done about the deep confusion and gross identity appropriation that has reigned in the movement for the last 30 years. In fact, BE is about drawing Jews and Gentiles closer together, spiritually if not physically/ritually/geogrpahically, while allowing both the freedom to be who their Creator made them to be.
"If all that is true, is there a downside to BE that, while supporting religiously observant Messianic Jews, sends an anti-Gentile message to the rest of us?"
As I blogged about recently, the mainline Christianity opposed the very creation of the Jewish movement on the grounds that it's a source of Jewish pride and looking down on Gentiles. If anything, it's the Jews who suffered from Gentile pride and Gentiles looking down on Jews. To Jews the same accusation pointed at them sounded just as ridiculous then as it does now. We only want to live as Jews before our L-rd.
"Gene, it sounds like you're saying that BE is only important to people who were born and raised in an ethnically and religiously Jewish home (which doesn't explain Derek, but never mind) and that people who have more "tenuous" connections to religious (but not ethnic) Judaism, don't see the same importance in the BE perspective."
I find that religiously observant Messianic Jews, those with a solid Jewish identity and those Gentiles who have undergone conversion or considering one under the auspices of a Jewish body are more in favor for Jewish-focused communities. It seems that those who respect the Jewish way of life and traditions and those who find the issues of Jewish continuity and prevention of assimilation as important to the plan of G-d - they tend to care about this issue more than others.
"This conversation makes me glad I never discovered any "long lost Jewish relatives" in my history."
James, I bet if you dig deeper, you will find a Jew lurking somewhere. The Jewish genealogical archaeology is practically a hobby among Messianic Gentiles:)
JAMES,
Gene is from Russia, He might have some Kozak blood in him who knows?
I wonder if he owns a rubashka?
It's nothing to do about rejecting the "Gentiles", even though something certainly must be done about the deep confusion and gross identity appropriation that has reigned in the movement for the last 30 years. In fact, BE is about drawing Jews and Gentiles closer together, spiritually if not physically/ritually/geogrpahically, while allowing both the freedom to be who their Creator made them to be.
I keep hearing how BE is about bringing Jewish Messianics and Gentile Christians in closer unity, but it still reads like classic approach avoidance conflict (I have a background in psychology, so the term popped into my head). On the one hand, the Matthew 28 directive originally required that non-Jews also be made into Messianic disciples and Acts 10 illustrates that non-Jews who come to faith receive the Holy Spirit in the same manner as Jews who accept Messiah Yeshua. However, 2000 years of Christians "beating up" Jews has created an obvious hesitancy in Judaism to include Christians, who are still a potentially dangerous breed of cat to Jews, in any sort of co-community.
I finished reading Choosing a Jewish Life last night and Diamant's section describing a brief history of conversion to Judaism paints a very grim picture of the relationship between Christians and Jews over time, resulting in an existing "distance" between these two people groups to this very day.
I remember sitting in my local Reform synagogue when the film The Passion of the Christ (2004) was about to be released. There was very real fear in that room because, as we all know, after every passion play, there's a pogrom. While that didn't occur in the U.S., Europe had several major anti-semitic incidents.
Non-Messianic Judaism can keep Gentiles at arms reach because there is no significant overlap between Jewish and Christian lives but in the Messianic movement, we're thrown together by the fact that we share a common Messiah. The Matthew 28 directive requiring that Gentiles be able to approach the throne of God without converting to Judaism complicated things greatly, both in the first century, and now.
That's why, from a BE perspective, it's "safer" if most Christians remain in the church and most Messianic Jews have separate communities. On the one hand, as I said previously, this separation seems necessary until the full number of Gentiles enter into worship of the Messiah. However, once we have filled up the bucket, so to speak, how do we get back together (and no, I don't mean Christians "cross dressing" as Jews...but get back together in fellowship)?
Or do we?
James, I bet if you dig deeper, you will find a Jew lurking somewhere. The Jewish genealogical archaeology is practically a hobby among Messianic Gentiles:)
I'm glad you smiled when you said that. Otherwise, I might feel insulted.
" In fact, BE is about drawing Jews and Gentiles closer together, spiritually if not physically/ritually/geogrpahically, while allowing both the freedom to be who their Creator made them to be."
James, can you see the deception here? They will only go as far as SPIRITUALLY, but will not sit at the same meal table with you...For them you are an outcast, unless of course you submit to the knife.....God help us all!
James, can you see the deception here? They will only go as far as SPIRITUALLY, but will not sit at the same meal table with you...
That "not sitting at the same table" is going to be hard to pull off:
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 8:10-11
"They will only go as far as SPIRITUALLY, but will not sit at the same meal table with you..."
Utter nonsense and scaremongering (once again, this is become Dan's pattern). In fact, I have a blog post titled "Jews and Gentiles Table Fellowship Society" that I started on December 27 waiting for me to finish.
In fact, I have a blog post titled "Jews and Gentiles Table Fellowship Society" that I started on December 27 waiting for me to finish.
Now would be a good time, I think.
James,
The standards for BE are really simple:
1. Tell Jewish people within the churches that they are expected to seriously engage with the covenant responsibility of their Jewish identity
2. Support Messianic Jewish individuals and communities, maintain good relationships with them, cross-invite speakers, visit each other, hold joint events, etc.
3. Interface with the broader Jewish community, seek to establish dialogue, work jointly together on projects, etc.
It's really not that difficult for a church to do that. Many of them are asking, "The Jewish people are elect of God. Now what?" and are looking for answers.
Also, Gentile Messianics (for the large part) are irrelevant to the vision of BE. Why would a group of Christians who so committed to their own identity as Israel as to appropriate Jewish practice be interested in an ecclesiological project that assumes the Jewish people are Israel? Additionally, there really aren't very many of them, and they're largely irrelevant outside the already-marginal, Internet-based "Messianic" world.
"Now would be a good time, I think."
All in due time, my friend. If some folks choose to misconstrue words and intentions or just be generally antagonistic, it's their own problem - no blog post will change their mind.
That should be the summary on the back cover of Dr. Kinzer's book. ;-)
Seems simple and straightforward.
Why would a group of Christians who so committed to their own identity as Israel as to appropriate Jewish practice be interested in an ecclesiological project that assumes the Jewish people are Israel? Additionally, there really aren't very many of them, and they're largely irrelevant outside the already-marginal, Internet-based "Messianic" world.
My wife calls me a Christian but I "feel" like I'm part of the "Messianic" world (although that could change dramatically in about 5 or 6 months). Should I feel irrelevant or did I miss something?
James asks :
"Generally (but perhaps not universally), BE proponents say that Gentile "Messianics" in One Law and similar congregations don't like or understand the importance of Bilateral Ecclesiology because they (we) aren't Jewish, don't have a lived Jewish history and experience, and just don't know the importance of having a distinct Jewish identity. "
I would say, from my experience, that "not knowing the importance of Jewish identity" applies to a smaller segment of One Law groups. Problem is, the fringe One Law groups that hold fringe views get the most air time, thus painting all of us One Law groups in one color.
I can say, that my group is well aware of the importance of Jewish identity, we just do the best we can, with who we have. None of us pretend to be something we are not. I realize there are some big hills to climb, but it seems as if the BE crowd views all non-Jewish groups as identity confused, anti-semetic people, and that is not the case.
All in due time, my friend. If some folks choose to misconstrue words and intentions or just be generally antagonistic, it's their own problem - no blog post will change their mind.
Yeah, but I'd like to read it. ;-)
" The standards for BE are really simple:
1. Tell Jewish people within the churches that they are expected to seriously engage with the covenant responsibility of their Jewish identity
2. Support Messianic Jewish individuals and communities, maintain good relationships with them, cross-invite speakers, visit each other, hold joint events, etc.
3. Interface with the broader Jewish community, seek to establish dialogue, work jointly together on projects, etc."
Ovadia here is trying to form a social club, I think. But that of course is not what Scriptures teach.
And Gene of course like always is attacking the messenger.
Didn't I just quoted what he wrote? Isn't this enough? why do we need to wait for another deceptive blog?
"Why would a group of Christians who so committed to their own identity as Israel as to appropriate Jewish practice be interested in an ecclesiological project that assumes the Jewish people are Israel? Additionally, there really aren't very many of them, and they're largely irrelevant outside the already-marginal, Internet-based "Messianic" world."
Because there are many people within the "Christian group" who want to become Jews wannbes like Ovidia.
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